Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

On the 'perceive me as a woman' point, what I find uncomfortable about this is that it's not to prevent someone from killing themself, but in order to feed a sexual fetish. It's like those people who pretend to have broken their legs because they get a kick out of being seen as disabled. It's gross to think that I'm playing along in someone's fantasy. This is the ultimate problem with Hayton confession his AGP - why on earth should us women go along with this shit?

Also, Hayton points out that he wants OTHERS to perceive him as a woman, but my question is...what if others don't want to, or can't? At the moment we are all expected to play along with the charade, and pretend that these men are women. But what if we don't? He can perceive himself as a woman all he likes , but he has already said he needs others to prop up his identity. If everyone refused then transitioning would be pointless. It's exceptionally rare that trainsitioned males reach a point where they flawlessly pass as women.

I would like to hear from his wife too, and maybe one day we will - or a wife in a similar situation.

I don't know what to think about all this, but I do feel sad for Hayton, not least because he is now caught between two groups of people who want nothing to do with him. Other trans women and transactivists loathe him, and the gender-critical feminists whose side he is now on don't approve of him either. Plus he knows he isn't a woman, yet he can't go back to existing as any kind of normal male because he's had his genitalia removed - which is pretty horrific.

Many women talk about this pattern of what they subsequently understand as grooming, by Hayton.

Then I'm the woman for them (well my wardrobe is anyway!)

I'm kidding, I don't do rollers.

There's money to be made from AGP being "complicated".

The 'side' that Hayton is on, is Hayton's. Not anyone's here. Women's interests may have things in common with what Hayton sees as Hayton's best interests, but there are places where those interests sharply divide. Hayton's threads here have made clear - pleasantly, nicely, civilly - that when such divides happens, Hayton is the one who will make decisions on women's rights and what Hayton will take and use.

I found it sad in those threads that for those who benefitted from the original, quiet, well hidden trampling of women, the aim is that when boundaries are re established and women's facilities and resources and spaces are returned to women, those 'nice' males will be 'included'.

Which will mean excluding women of course, and wholly disrespects women's right to boundaries and a sex, so it doesn't work and misses the point entirely.

The thing that gets me is the whole concept of AGP being somehow glossed over whilst simultaneously occupying the front and centre position.

It's really weird.

Wearing women's clothes and being addressed as a woman is the sexually arousing part.

Where the fuck does Hayton get off in saying, because I'm asking nicely, will you please do all those things. Or because of some victim narrative that, I for one, simply can't see.

Women, children, his colleagues, family, are all being asked to participate in something that gets him off.

At he's completely upfront about it!!

This absolute brass neck and boundary violation is being repurposed as something positive.

It's an extraordinary feat.

I would like to hear from his wife too, and maybe one day we will - or a wife in a similar situation.

A transwidow with a prominent ex? I would imagine it’s almost impossible for them to speak out honestly while still with their husbands.

The thing that gets me is the whole concept of AGP being somehow glossed over whilst simultaneously occupying the front and centre position.

It's really weird.

Wearing women's clothes and being addressed as a woman isthe sexually arousing part.

Where the fuck does Hayton get off in saying, because I'm asking nicely, will you please do all those things. Or because of some victim narrative that, I for one, simply can't see.

Women, children, his colleagues, family, are all being asked to participate in something that gets him off.

At he's completely upfront about it!!

This absolute brass neck and boundary violation is being repurposed as something positive.

It's an extraordinary feat.

What Datun said.

No matter how "reasonable" men like Hayton appear to be they are not part of the solution, in fact quite the opposite.

It’s clear that Hayton has triggered folk here and that i would not want to disrespect.

I went and did my garden to think about this.

Then searched for what Hayton has said over the years.

I cannot accept that Stephanie is some oppressed woman who does not know her own mind, there is no evidence for that and frankly i find that quite patronising.

Unless you can give me an example i dont know about.

i finally landed on trigonometry 2 years ago and Hayton is full on GC, in my opinion.

Whatever offensive attitudes and doings he has committed in the past, does not negate what he now says.

In trigonometry he accepts firstly his male privilege, and also his acquired privilege as a trans person.

Whilst it would seem from (what my much respected elders in knowledge here say) that he is an utter cunt.

I do not agree.

I am going to but his book and make a judgement on that .

I do not want to sit in an aggrieved trench forever, i want change, from this GI nonsense.

And if Hayton can move the agenda then so be it

Yes it is very annoying that it is a man that does that, who might get heard,

But that i am afraid to say is currently the way that it is.

Going to hide under a rock now.

There is no need to hide anywhere, having other opinions isn't a sin in the way it can be within identity politics. I'm not sure that it's helpful to frame other opinions and women's insights and experiences as a trauma response because you haven't (yet) had similar experiences and don't understand them.

I think it's possible that in time you may come to see for yourself some of the more subtle layers of behaviours and tells of underlying beliefs and attitudes.

Going to hide under a rock now.

lol! You don't have to do that 😄

All I would say is look at actions, not words.

I try really hard not to think about this aspect of the whole thing, but when you think of things that men can no longer do in the office, they can't brush past the women that bit too close, they can't feel their arse up on the way past the photocopier. They can't objectify women with their page three calendars and stories of strip joints, they can't make sexually suggestive comments to the teenager who had just started their first job ever on reception.

It must be bloody miserable at work now for these blokes. What will they do?

Hmm let me think!

So many of the TW I’ve met IRL are fixated on large breasts 🤮

That Debbie Hayton could hold such a ridiculous and distasteful belief about their impact on social standing within female groups alongside them identifying as a scientist would be laughable. When they are teaching teenage girls it’s just revolting.

The openness about porn use and excessive detail about dilation is all very boundary pushing

Lol live Rock free Karensalright!

I think you made a clear post & I understand your thinking.

I 100% agree with Datun's deeds not words comment.

A long time ago an older straight feminist said to me "when it comes to feminism listen to lesbians" & I've found it to be good advice. My addition to that is "& when it comes to AGPs listen to transwidows".

It's always interesting to monitor his progressive disclosure. This is the first time he's admitted to porn use I think?

oh gosh i love you all, we are a broad church of views its such a safe space to me Thank you

If DH is trying to groom us all into granting him special exemptions after we win the Bathroom Revolution then he's going about it the wrong way. All that stuff about his paraphilia and porn use will give everyone the ick and no mistake.

Please stop calling women who are wise to this man [who removed the rights of girls to have single sex spaces in schools] as 'triggered'.

We are not responding to a pcsd incident cowering in the corner.

We are just stating what is going on here.

He is smelling the tide turning and getting in before the tide turns, pretending oh golly gosh, I'm so critical of gender too ladies, so let me in.

He can get to fuck.

Such a good post by @Datun, thank you for reposting it here, Rethinking.

@AlisonDonut when i say triggered i mean women who have been around here along time who know more than i do. There is no need to be combatative amongst ourselves. I am late stage to GC i was not part of the original journey.

I used to like DH and believe he added value to the GC discussion. Looking back I think I was appreciating a male view on it.

As time has gone on his openness about AGP - the literal porn-led fetishisation of women - his admission of still using women’s loos with a dismissive “aww shucks” attitude - slowly told me everything I needed to know about him.

He is a man, he has no place in women’s spaces, or talking on behalf of women.

I knew I had this somewhere.

Oh I love that!

Personally, if you're new to the entire issue, then you're probably just dealing with it the same way a lot of us did.

I do genuinely believe there's an element of internalised sexism to it. Debbie Hayton is male, it's tempting to listen to men more than women. Women are socialised to it. That's one of the tenets of feminism, after all.

And he identifies as trans. You won't be the first person, Karens, to assume that him agreeing with even part of what we say can only be a good thing.

'if he thinks it, that bolsters our side.'

Only I don't think he does. I think it's a ploy to try and ensure cooperation. Or acceptance. Or compromise. And it's crumbs anyway. None of it effects him.

And, personally, because I believe it is so deliberate, it's almost worse than other TW who agree with bits, like Jenner on sport, for instance.

and as tinsel says, is this admission about porn use a new disclosure ?

Because the transwidows can absolutely nail the pattern recognition involved in this fetish.

And drip feeding of the boundary pushing is part of it.

Get acceptance of 'this bit'. Then work on the next. And so on.

Just keep watching and analysing with an open mind. It'll be an experience, if nothing else.

And no rock hiding!🙈