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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5

976 replies

nauticant · 24/01/2024 15:43

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3
Thread #4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4991883-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-4

OP posts:
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32
nauticant · 24/01/2024 16:38

3 April for oral submissions.

OP posts:
ickky · 24/01/2024 16:38

Looks like 3rd April.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 16:38

April 3

Such a long time to wait!

ickky · 24/01/2024 16:39

If it's in the same room I think the login deets will be the same.

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2024 16:39

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/01/2024 16:37

I agree. She sounds like a privately Edinburgh Educated Naice Young Laydee.

They are ten a penny round these parts and they are often a PITA

Its like a former Etonian who knows fuck all but can blag his way with stock phrases and meaningless trite.

NC saw straight through it - hence the politician comment.

nauticant · 24/01/2024 16:41

I wonder if this is a culture thing, that an English barrister will have a strong preference for oral submissions, while a Scottish barrister is happy to do it in writing. Or maybe there's something particular about this case to explain NC's preference.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2024 16:41

NEWSFLASH

Have you heard the news? Have you heard the news?
ERCC have discriminatory views.
They don't give a fuck about victim's pain,
they are so up their own arses they've got shit on the brain.
They think men can be women if they say it's so!
It's a massive fuck you, an emotional blow,
to the true people deserving of compassion and care.
Rape victims should know, so they are aware!
To do anything different is really not right,
but they don't give a fuck about women's plight.

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/01/2024 16:43

Of all the witnesses she sounded the most sure of herself and the person I'd least want anywhere near any responsibility for caring for survivors of rape. Her privilege was extremely apparent.

I missed quite a bit of her testimony - did NC repeat the questions about the hypothetical Muslim service user? I think if you had enough minority characteristics in conflict with each other this witness might implode.... she seemingly has no handle on actual reality or the reciprocity involved in how decent humans interact with each other at all. It's all 'as a board we all work together' blah de blah management style bullshit whilst throwing someone as decent and caring as RA under the bus for wrongthink. Her words don't match her deeds.

Madcats · 24/01/2024 16:43

TT aside, do Employment Tribunals have stenographers/get recorded?

I suppose the barristers already have a pretty good idea what they are going to say, but I would certainly forget a fair bit by April.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 16:43

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2024 16:41

NEWSFLASH

Have you heard the news? Have you heard the news?
ERCC have discriminatory views.
They don't give a fuck about victim's pain,
they are so up their own arses they've got shit on the brain.
They think men can be women if they say it's so!
It's a massive fuck you, an emotional blow,
to the true people deserving of compassion and care.
Rape victims should know, so they are aware!
To do anything different is really not right,
but they don't give a fuck about women's plight.

Ha I love your poems!😂

Zebracat · 24/01/2024 16:45

I don’t think KH sounded reasonable. She was very weak on the lack of an apology re transphobia although their own appeals process recommended it. I don’t know what her report said. But her pride in her work seems misplaced given where ERCC find themself. Also,I surely can’t be the only person who thought she would have benefitted from some humility, and the ability to critically reflect upon her work.
Everytime these people talk about ABs upset, I think about Roz. And her real suffering.

Waitwhat23 · 24/01/2024 16:46

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/01/2024 16:37

I agree. She sounds like a privately Edinburgh Educated Naice Young Laydee.

They are ten a penny round these parts and they are often a PITA

Often very nice to speak to but completely oblivious.

Can't understand why anyone would choose to live in Drylaw when "they could live in Morningside". Can't understand why anyone would choose to send their kids to their local catchment High School. Extolls the virtues of Mellis the Cheesemongers in Stockbridge without understanding the person they are speaking to is struggling to afford cheese from Aldi.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 16:49

Zebracat · 24/01/2024 16:45

I don’t think KH sounded reasonable. She was very weak on the lack of an apology re transphobia although their own appeals process recommended it. I don’t know what her report said. But her pride in her work seems misplaced given where ERCC find themself. Also,I surely can’t be the only person who thought she would have benefitted from some humility, and the ability to critically reflect upon her work.
Everytime these people talk about ABs upset, I think about Roz. And her real suffering.

AB is like one of those young pp you see on Twitter/Tiktok who have recorded a hysterical sobbing video of themselves in their car because they have been ' misgendered ' !

Rainbowshit · 24/01/2024 16:50

Private schools just do a good job of churning out pupils that have a misplaced sense of confidence that can hide their lack of experience or knowledge.

Unfortunately in life that's what seems to be valued over actual knowledge or experience.

lordloveadog · 24/01/2024 16:50

Is the reason NC prefers oral submissions possibly that she is much, much better at this than their barrister?

nauticant · 24/01/2024 16:52

Maybe she thinks that arguments about gender identity ideology sound more ridiculous coming out of someone's mouth rather than on a page.

OP posts:
Chrysanthemum5 · 24/01/2024 16:53

Maybe she wants the chance to repeat some choice phrases

lordloveadog · 24/01/2024 16:53

Yes, given that you have to parse every single word not to commit heresy, definitely easier to do that in writing.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 16:53

lordloveadog · 24/01/2024 16:50

Is the reason NC prefers oral submissions possibly that she is much, much better at this than their barrister?

Ooh good point!

She must also know how much interest there is in this case, it must be pretty rare for 100pp to be watching one...

Waitwhat23 · 24/01/2024 16:53

Rainbowshit · 24/01/2024 16:50

Private schools just do a good job of churning out pupils that have a misplaced sense of confidence that can hide their lack of experience or knowledge.

Unfortunately in life that's what seems to be valued over actual knowledge or experience.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Edinburgh has 1 in 4 children attending a private school, far higher than anywhere else in the UK.

I've met some absolutely brilliant people in Edinburgh who went to private school. However, I've also met quite a few whose confidence far exceeded their knowledge/capability.

princessleah1 · 24/01/2024 16:55

This witness knew about Forstater. As a trustee she should have been all over making sure the judgement was known about and policies reviewed.

CriticalCondition · 24/01/2024 16:58

Madcats · 24/01/2024 16:43

TT aside, do Employment Tribunals have stenographers/get recorded?

I suppose the barristers already have a pretty good idea what they are going to say, but I would certainly forget a fair bit by April.

I wondered about this. During the hearing I've noticed a 'recording enabled' pop up on what I think is the clerk's bit of the screen. I don't recall seeing this in any of the other hearings. I concluded that Scottish courts have their own procedures but for a heart-stopping moment was paranoid my laptop had decided to commit contempt of court!

Karensalright · 24/01/2024 16:59

princessleah1 · 24/01/2024 16:55

This witness knew about Forstater. As a trustee she should have been all over making sure the judgement was known about and policies reviewed.

Think that was why NC didn’t have to labour to much over this witness will be obvs to the panel she should have known better

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2024 17:03

For me whats glaringly obvious is the following:

It is actually somewhat irrelevant that we are talking about trans inclusivity or a trans CEO.

Off the top of my head (and I've probably missed a few here) issues in this organisation lie with:
proceedural failings (admin errors of this magnitude should be 'never' events),
a lack of proper awareness and understanding of the law,
a culture of fear,
a culture of bullying,
a culture of abdication of responsibility,
seeing training sessions for staff as the be all an end all,
a total lack of understanding of service users vulnerabilities,
no understanding of the balancing of needs (with regards to the EA) and instead some pomo bollocks about heirachy of needs with trans people always at the bottom,
policies being all over the place with some in existance and some merely abstract 'cultural values' that are actually undefined,
a massive load of hyprocritical nonsense which is used as it suits those with power,
a lack of ability to challenge senior staff or an ability to clarify difficult issue - there was an avoidance of difficult issues,
staff being treated completely differently with some given clear favouritism,
a lack of understanding of the aims and objectives of the disciplinary process and how it should be for BOTH the subject and the organisation,
a board which doesn't seem to fully understand its role,
no awareness of new issues and rules that directly affect the service (eg the implications of forstater) - there should always be someone with a responsibility to keep an eye on sector developments and update the organisation in a prompt and timely way as appropriate,
process being used a punishment rather than it being a fair process which was done to cause as little distress to all parties as possible,
extremely inexperienced board members and a lack of balance on the board,
board members having a lack of diversity of opinion politically,
extremely inexperienced board members not checked up on and left to deal with significant issues alone.
the CEO being untouchable in the eyes of staff despite glaring issues over their conduct / beliefs (being removed from a disciplinary process should have had a follow up if nothing else).
policies that put staff before vulnerable service users,
no grassroots level understanding of service users - this is a top down led organisation for a service that should be lead by the issues and needs of users
an assumption that service users would read policy before engaging with the service and would have higher educational needs than is likely with because board and staff are too privileged too see the reality of the lives of services users,
an arrogance that they were 'right' and everyone else is therefore 'wrong' and should be treated accordingly
the failure of senior staff to put themselves forward as witness, instead throwing others firmly under the bus

You can strip back SOOOO much of this case to these issues.

When you add in biological reality and the fact that this is a Rape Service it just makes it 10 times worse.

NC was absoluetely right in saying MW isn't fit to be CEO. Their sex and gender actually, ultimately come secondary to ALLLLLLL the above points - because even if you do say TWAW is a legitimate belief the above all still applies.

Even if Roz WAS transphobic (she's not) those things would STILL all apply and they'd STILL be cause for concern about how this charity was run.

THATS the really scary thing.

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