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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5

976 replies

nauticant · 24/01/2024 15:43

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3
Thread #4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4991883-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-4

OP posts:
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32
SaffronSpice · 23/05/2024 11:08

Maybe it's a stupid question, but you don't have to be in an employee/employer relationship to bring a discrimination claim, do you?

No you don’t although the Equality Act only places obligations on organisations, not individuals. Probably one of the most common type discrimination claim to be made is that by children against schools and local education authorities. Other discrimination claims include wheelchair users of bus services.

SaffronSpice · 23/05/2024 11:13

Manxexile · 22/05/2024 21:54

I've been thinking about this since the Jo Phoenix case

If a person is a member of a trade union and their union refuses to provide them with legal support because of that person's gender critical beliefs, why can't that person bring a discrimination claim against their union?

And certainly claim any legal fees they've had to pay because the union refused to represent them.

Maybe it's a stupid question, but you don't have to be in an employee/employer relationship to bring a discrimination claim, do you?

But thinking about this, it is not just a discrimination claim but surely a breach of contract too?

Tallisker · 23/05/2024 11:50

I've just terminated my membership of PCS because of their stance on TWAW TMAM NBAV. I know if I needed their help to defend discrimination due to my GC beliefs I wouldn't get good support or representation.

popebishop · 23/05/2024 13:25

Her only crime in the eyes of JK Rowling and her conscripts, is the fact she is unapologetically transgender."

Somebody please tell me the difference between the above quote from FW, and fictional character David Brent saying that Nelson Mandela was imprisoned just for being Black?!

popebishop · 23/05/2024 13:27

I mean, if you want to know what someone's been accused of, in an actual tribunal - amazingly, that's actually written down in several places, and discussed at some length, to save the general public from having to, y'know, make it up!

TWETMIRF · 23/05/2024 13:32

Look, if Fred's version identifies as the truth then it's the truth. Ok?

GoodHeavens99 · 23/05/2024 13:36

Fred said Henrietta Freeman wasn't a real person.

He said that she's one of Dennis Kavanagh's socks.
I mean... I don't know where to start with that nonsense. 🤷🏻‍♀️

We know Fred's just trolling, and should be completely ignored, like a kid showing off in the supermarket.

RethinkingLife · 23/05/2024 13:39

I see Julie Bindel has gone there as to a corollary. I don't know if this is a provocation to action as well as thought. Interesting thread (for what I could read). My security software doesn't allow me to open Nitter so I can't post a link to that).

I’ve heard countless stories about men who have raped women and been charged with the crime using her witness statement as a masturbatory aid. I know that many men seek out pornography where women are raped, and many men make pornography of the rapes they commit.

Mridul Wadhwa is a man, and has speculated on whether women orgasm during rape.

I wonder what his motivation is for spending so many years working at rape crisis centres, and directly counselling some rape victims himself? Let’s get real, this scandal is even worse than most have realised or faced up to.

https://x.com/bindelj/status/1793566942894129205

x.com

https://x.com/bindelj/status/1793566942894129205

BezMills · 23/05/2024 14:12

I think that's a horrible accusation to make, but I'm not Julie's mum. She's big enough to know what she's doing on the internet.

SaffronSpice · 23/05/2024 14:30

BezMills · 23/05/2024 14:12

I think that's a horrible accusation to make, but I'm not Julie's mum. She's big enough to know what she's doing on the internet.

MW is not a qualified counsellor but was ‘counselling’ women, apparently four per week ‘for fun’ to use his words.

HellonHeels · 23/05/2024 14:31

TWETMIRF · 23/05/2024 13:32

Look, if Fred's version identifies as the truth then it's the truth. Ok?

🤣🤣🤣

ArabellaScott · 23/05/2024 14:41

The quote on keeping it 'fun'. Are the ellipses showing omitted words? Does anyone know the source?

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5
BezMills · 23/05/2024 14:45

Edited

Here is the source in full

An insight with Mridul Wadhwa into working in a rape crisis centre (studentnewspaper.org)

Content warning: mentions of sexual assault and rape.Sexual violence is a sensitive, yet current issue that affects thousands of women on a yearly basis. Whilst crime rates in Scotland are decreasing, sexually based crimes have been on an upward trend since 1974.

Rape crisis centres are just one way a survivor can seek help after experiencing sexual violence of any kind. Mridul Wadhwa is a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, dedicated to helping individuals overcome trauma. The Student had the opportunity to speak to Wadhwa about her experiences working with rape and sexual assault survivors.
“I think the biggest myth [of sexual violence] is ‘stranger danger,’” Wadhwa commented. “All messages are usually about being safe when you’re outside – and yes there is a minor risk for women to experience sexual assault from strangers – but the reality is that most of the time it comes from someone they know, including their acquaintance. The other myth is that your body may react in a physical way to sexual violence including an orgasm but that does not mean that it’s not rape because that’s a physical response. You can’t control how your body responds to violence.”
The work is incredibly emotionally draining, so Wadhwa has to be balanced and mindful of her own emotional state. The Student asked her what she does to take care of herself: “Well I don’t deal with individual survivors every day, so for me what I do in terms of self-care is a lot of avoidance. I do see survivors – four a week usually – who help me stay connected to the cause…but it’s important to keep it fun. We should be able to laugh and use humour at work. In terms of my team, I try to cook for them once a week or every other week.”
Beyond that, she recommends debriefing: “By talking about what it’s like for you, you are creating that distance and also you remind yourself that the survivors who come to our centre have other lives outside of the centre.”
Most importantly, rape crisis centres are spaces for those affected by sexual violence, most of whom are women. The Student asked Wadhwa if she believes a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager. She does not: “I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.”
Recognising that it is not only women who are affected by sexual violence, Wadhwa’s centre is a feminist organisation with adhering values. To Wadhwa that means “ensuring that inequalities are highlighted and when people are in our centre they’re experiencing equality service that is focused on their needs as they describe them. Also, it’s focused on putting into context the violence women and girls experience in the wider inequalities of their lives. If there are male survivors, they need to be acknowledged as survivors. The patriarchy impacts their experience as well.”
“It’s about thinking of equality at all times and obviously a part of it is about women’s equality because women are always grappling with gender inequality whether it is in the workforce or in their experience of gender based violence or violence against women and girls it’s not just what happens in terms of the abuse but also what happens afterwards. How do they experience the system particularity if they’re engaging in the criminal justice system and the inequalities that surface there.
“As a service provider there are some intersections that we need to consider. We offer a person-centred service which means we look at the individual and their needs. But the reality is that we are working in an environment where people are not thinking about minorities. As a manager, I need to think like do we have to hire an interpreter. Or just yesterday we were having a conversation if our space is welcoming to people with autism and what we can do to make that space more welcoming. Who they are as people also comes up in support sessions and can be a barrier to not accessing our service.”
In our conversation, Wadhwa mentioned the lack of control survivors experience, even after the traumatic event: “It is a very disempowering experience when you report to the police because it is a big shift in the understanding of being a victim. They are actually powerless in it. There are some areas where they might be able to influence but it’s very, very minute.”
Perhaps the largest source of power survivors can claim is their ability to come forward and relate their story if they so choose. Yet many times they are not believed. The Student asked Wadhwa why it is important to believe a survivor: “Think about how much time is wasted arguing about whether we should believe sexual assault survivors but if you look at what a survivor who has come forward is setting themselves up to, why would they come forward and report it if it was not true? There might be a small percentage of false allegations but they’re nowhere near what our society thinks where they are.
“Just because somebody was not proven guilty doesn’t mean that they are not guilty because it’s about the quality of the evidence presented. The burden of proof is really hard, and it probably should be. I’m not going to debate that here but…we must stay away from doubting people.
“There might be a narrative in the disclosure of that experience that does not always add up because usually how we experience trauma is that we don’t always remember what happened to you and it’s not about the facts of the case. The rape crisis centre is there to listen to those who wanna talk about it and to recover from it. I mean what does one gain from lying about it.”
Having sexual violence disclosed to you can certainly be a challenging experience. Dealing with sensitive matters is just that – sensitive – and requires much thought and attention. The Student asked Wadhwa how she would recommend a friend or loved one reacted if violence was disclosed to them: “Try not to dig holes in people’s stories. This is not a logical narrative of an experience – it is the emotional narrative of an experience. People might not always remember what happened.
“Try to stay away from the idea of what they could have done to stay safe or even what you could have done as a friend to keep your friend safe. It is my belief that we don’t put ourselves in these positions. It is the perpetrator who decided to be violent. It is not a choice that we made. The message that we should be telling our friends who have disclosed this to us is that it is never their fault.
“Another thing that we should be thinking about is what happened after the disclosure. The whole decision as to what happens after the disclosure is up to the survivor. They should remain in complete control of that experience and as a friend I would recommend that you enable that control. Whether they report to the police or not is their decision.
“Sometimes a disclosure from a friend can be triggering for you in case you had those experiences. My advice would be to use rape crisis centres because they are not just for survivors. They are also for friends and family of those who have had a traumatic experience because it does take a lot of your to support someone who has gone through trauma. There is often guilt associated with wanting to ask for help when your friend is in greater need but for them to support them appropriately and effectively you have to be in a good place yourself. That’s why rape crisis centres support you.”
Rape crisis centres also offer sexual violence prevention education programs. Wadhwa’s centre is part of a national prevention program through education scheme. They offer a series of workshops hoping that young people become educated on different topics like gender and pornography.

Chrysanthemum5 · 23/05/2024 17:25

To be fair to MW (and I'm don't know ow why I'm bothering because he's not been fair to women) the keep it fun comments related to cooking for the team etc as a way of counterbalancing the stress of supporting victims. Not referring to victim support as a fun thing to do.

Of course MW has no qualifications in victims support or counselling (and is male) so should be nowhere near rape victims but that's another point

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 23/05/2024 17:29

The Student asked Wadhwa if she believes a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager. She does not: “I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.”

I bet he was laughing up his sleeve at that point.

IwantToRetire · 23/05/2024 17:48

I bet he was laughing up his sleeve at that point.

Or worse not even registering the disconnect.

But in terms of the interview posted above, it is an extreme example of appropriating the analysis and policies of the sector you want to inflitrate.

What I dont understand is how any women who have actually experienced working with women who are victims of male violence, have apparently sat and applauded MW parroting these straight out of the guide book for RCCs, back at them.

(The use of the word "we" throughout was in fact the most sickening part, but not surprised a student wouldn't challenge them on that. And the consistent use of the word "people" when referencing users of RCCs.)

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 23/05/2024 17:54

See also all the stuff about how the survivor should have ‘control’. Except for when it comes to being able to talk to a woman.

maltravers · 23/05/2024 17:57

He’s trolling everybody and no doubt enjoying trampling over women’s boundaries.

IwantToRetire · 23/05/2024 18:00

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 23/05/2024 17:54

See also all the stuff about how the survivor should have ‘control’. Except for when it comes to being able to talk to a woman.

Exactly

TWETMIRF · 23/05/2024 18:06

Women can only have the control that men allow them

DrBlackbird · 23/05/2024 18:10

your body may react in a physical way to sexual violence including an orgasm comment made me feel sick. Fucking hell.

Poinsettiasarevile · 23/05/2024 18:11

Julie is indeed playing with 🔥 but I do have some very big questions to ask of men who choose careers where they have access to vulnerable women in spaces that are dominated by women. I used to think I would be cool with a male mid wife for example, now, no way. I know most of them have benign motivations, but enough of them will be using their position to wield power over vulnerable women to let any of them near me.

Why would a man take this job out of allllll the jobs they could be qualified for, knowing the controversy it would create, getting rid of anyone raising any questions. It seems that Roz was pretty much a lone dissenting voice. Once she was out of the way, who would voice any concerns? Who would stick their neck out against this totemic recruitment of a trans women to a rape crisis centre?

ArabellaScott · 23/05/2024 18:15

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 23/05/2024 17:29

The Student asked Wadhwa if she believes a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager. She does not: “I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.”

I bet he was laughing up his sleeve at that point.

Dupers delight.

Boiledbeetle · 23/05/2024 18:24

ArabellaScott · 23/05/2024 18:15

Dupers delight.

The AI is back up!!!

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5
Datun · 24/05/2024 00:38

RethinkingLife · 23/05/2024 13:39

I see Julie Bindel has gone there as to a corollary. I don't know if this is a provocation to action as well as thought. Interesting thread (for what I could read). My security software doesn't allow me to open Nitter so I can't post a link to that).

I’ve heard countless stories about men who have raped women and been charged with the crime using her witness statement as a masturbatory aid. I know that many men seek out pornography where women are raped, and many men make pornography of the rapes they commit.

Mridul Wadhwa is a man, and has speculated on whether women orgasm during rape.

I wonder what his motivation is for spending so many years working at rape crisis centres, and directly counselling some rape victims himself? Let’s get real, this scandal is even worse than most have realised or faced up to.

https://x.com/bindelj/status/1793566942894129205

There was a thread here where a woman worked on a help line for victims of sexual violence. She said men calling up to get off on rape fantasies was an hourly occurrence.

A couple of other women talked about their experience working at the Samaritans, with similar phone calls. With the added abuse of being told they can't hang up on men who were obviously wanking 'just in case'.

Julie has been at the sharp end of male violence for decades. I'm not at all surprised she's gone there.