Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

We can add "my lovely trans friend" to the list of reasons why some women are ok with some distinctly unlovely males barging into women's spaces and deliberately seeking to make women uncomfortable.

I had an argument with a woman last month who thought sex based categories in sports were 'stupid' and that sports instead should be separated by 'comparative achievement'. I found it utterly astonishing how little she could appreciate such a policy would impact on womans sports in terms of fairness, safety, welfare and safeguarding etc. She did not have a scooby and needless to say was active in any sports herself but was happy to throw womens sport under the bus for the sake of inclusiveness. I rarely get angry but she was an utter fucking moron.

I see the bat signal has gone out.How odd we don't see these self same posters on the ERCC Employment Tribunal thread. Or the SPS policy change thread. Or the Rachel Meade thread. Or the Andrew Miller thread. Or the FWS Public Representation thread. Or the Safeguarding thread.

Indeed Wait. They’re never on those threads are they justifying for example why it’s entirely fine that a rape support service for women can’t guarantee that a woman will get a female support worker/group

Women can believe that trans women are women

But they aren't women. When people use this vapid thought-terminating cliche, they are saying that they actually believe that any male can declare himself to be a woman tomorrow and they will accept that he is a woman.

What is a woman? Can you not see how sexist it is to believe that being a woman is about whether you adhere to cultural stereotypes, and how unhelpful it is to pretend that female people don't have collective experiences that male people don't (and vice versa)?

A related current thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4988767-its-all-very-terribly-complicated-you-see

A post surgery TW does not have the same genitals as me.

Well in all fairness we have seen the activist male-centric view shared there in public, documented, by the CEO of the support service in person, that the main issue for raped women is to 'learn not to be transphobic' (while washing away the women's roots of rape service) which translates as those women just need to be made to stop resisting being used by males who really want to be with and around raped women, and to ensure those women do not say or believe anything that messes with this male agenda. Quite up front about it. The women are resources for the personal and political agendas, not any source of actual interest or care in themselves. Hence why there's no concern about making it clear that if you're not prepared to indulge and be used by a male then you don't get rape services, end of. And no one must mention sex because if that figleaf is allowed to slip, it's unjustifiable and everybody knows it.

But yes, interesting that no one yet quite has the nerve to come and try selling that most interesting world view to women here. It's almost as if they're ashamed of it or something.

I wouldnt desribe myself as complacent but the reality is I havent actually been affected personally by this. And lots of people are only motivated by things that affect them. Which isnt great, but as someone who spends a lot of time supporting disabled children to access stuff, if say most people are incredibly complacent about that too.
The only 'trans issue that has impacted me is i know lots of autistic girl struggling with puberty being persauded they are men onlind so my focus is on the safeguarding children more than say womens sports just cos i dont have capacity to think about everything.

Who has “ less power” though? Think of all the countless times being a biological woman has disadvantaged you. The little things that comes with this body that men don’t need to worry about trans or otherwise.

Notice no one is really concerned by transmen aside from maybe a wider discussion over puberty and what they are doing to themselves.

No, I haven’t a negative encounter with a trans person. I got to know two TW relatively well, and I liked and got on well with both.

I don’t believe they are women, though.

I also saw very clearly some of the discrimination they faced. Again, this did not convert that person into female.

I don’t think it’s the argument you’re making, but I do find it frustrating when people use the argument that if we knew and liked trans people, our objections to the ideology would crumble. Being a woman isn’t a prize that is awarded if you’re nice enough. It’s a category that serves a vital purpose for people in it and so I don’t support destabilising or queering it, however lovely individuals may be.

One of the effects of the capture of bodies like the CQC Spend is that people with disabilities have been told that they can no longer request a worker of the same sex to support them. There’s a woman with disabilities on Twitter whose written extensively about her experiences of requesting a female carer and was subjected to full TRA pile on (hoping musnetters with better memories than mine will remember her name) for daring to say she wouldn’t want a TW carrying out intimate personal care

and redefining women to mean “adult human female and some men who believe themselves to be women” affects all women the same as if we redefined children to mean “juvenile humans and some adults who believe themselves to be children” which I think you’d agree would be nuts!

Not that it would justify the vitriol, it’s the question I always ask people who are claiming the problem is the people with less power than them, not those with more.

I don't believe MTF trans people as a group have less power than women as a group. If that was the case we would not be in the situation we are now, the fact that many women object to some males being categorised as women would mean something and our feelings wouldn't be met with contempt by many men.

If those men truly treated "trans women" the same they would be as dismissive of them as they are of women, but they don't, so it's very clear that they do actually understand what biological sex is.

How many of you have ever had a real life negative encounter with a trans person?

It was what brought me here in the first place, thanks. Wondering why all the marketing I'd been fed wasn't matching the reality, and then I found that it really wasn't just me, and the issues weren't a bug, they were a feature of the entire political movement.

Thing is, however sorry you may feel for someone, however 'lovely' they may be, should you remove rights from others to give that 'someone' more? Is it right that some people must go without anything at all so your lovely 'someone' can have their preferred choice of everything?

No. It isn't. Every single actual need could easily be met without harming women or removing resources from them.

And then you have to face the reality that this is an unacceptable option to the politics and proponents of it, because it is not about the need being met at all. It is about the access to women and the removal of women's consent, and you've been conned by clever marketing into enabling and supporting an agenda that you haven't fully realised.

A bit of reading of the current court case will open your eyes if they're not open yet.

I believe women have less power than TW and there's no research to dispute that. Bear in mind that a TW can look just like a man (e.g. beard, suit). why would that person suddenly have less power than a woman?

Henrietta Freeman. The abuse and vitriol she has received from those determined that she should not be able to request that she receive intimate care from a female carer/health care professional has been utterly shocking.

But then, it's part of a wider pattern. The rape survivor who had her letter, requesting a female examiner for her mammogram, passed around a health trust as an example of 'transphobia'. The active disingenuousness of hospital trusts in respect to 'single sex' hospital wards. The ERCC refusing services (and actively choosing not to refer to Beira's Place) to those who want single sex services. And of course the six words amendment of the Forensic Medical Services Bill.

Me too. It feels like the world has lost its mind. Good on Glinner.

OK, everyone's going to pile on me here but I genuinely don't understand the fear of trans women on MN. It's something I see only here - it's not reflected in conversations I have with friends and colleagues.
I think normal men (as in not trans women) are far more of a risk to women than a trans woman. The Mumsnet view of trans women seems to be that they are just men who want to infiltrate female spaces to either be voyeuristic or to assault women or to get ahead in sport or whatever. I think it's actually only a tiny % of trans women who do this.
Most just feel different and want to live as women. There's plenty of evidence to show differences between the male brain and the brain of a trans woman. Surely once you understand these brain differences the whole trans thing makes more sense?
I knew three trans women about 20 - 25 years ago, before the issue became so talked about. One was my university professor. He was a man when he started teaching me but transitioned throughout my course. Another was a colleague, another was a good friend of my DH. In each case I felt perfectly comfortable sharing public toilets with them. The thought of any of them having untoward motives when they used a female bathroom struck me as ludicrous.
I know 99% of people here will disagree with me.

Many 'gender diverse' people ARE marginalised, vulnerable and in need if support. This doesn't mean that safeguarding, fairness, and other people's rights are abandoned.

thanks Wait. Hete you go @Spendonsend link to Henrietta’s Twitter
https://x.com/hen10freeman/status/1603022204467351556?s=20
Have a read

the children you support will grow up to be adults with disabilities. They may want same sex carers and thanks to TRA they’ll be told they’re appalling bigots

It isn't 'fear', you've been sold a bit of a con trick there.

Read through a few threads on this board and you'll get it. The current court case in itself would be extremely eye opening if you're new to these ideas.

Many 'gender diverse' people ARE marginalised, vulnerable and in need if support. This doesn't mean that safeguarding, fairness, and other people's rights are abandoned.

Yes, that's a really good point. It's not a "most marginalised" competition.

My (step)niece was largely raised by grandparents, and I'd say the 'complacency' among the fairly elderly women in her life was because they really didn't understand what she was planning on doing to herself. As one grandma put it, 'I thought transboy was just your modern word for lesbian.'

The shock they felt when they realised she had had a double mastectomy at 18 (privately, having accessed family money -- it's complicated) is something I don't much like to recall.

I think it'd be great if you stuck around and offered your views, fwiw.

There are no good quality studies which show consistent brain differences between men and women such that they can reasonably be split into two distinct groups. If I'm wrong, please share the peer reviewed, consistent data.