Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

On Mumsnet? Absolutely!

and there is also extremism at the other end of the argument too. It’s why it’s so hard to find middle ground.

its also why sweeping generalisations are able to form.

and there is also extremism at the other end of the argument too. It’s why it’s so hard to find middle ground.

What form does the extremism at the other end of the argument take?

Because people have to keep on and on suspending their disbelief to collect their virtue signalling points.

It's selfish thinking because it's for themselves entirely so that they are not the 'mean, unenlightened bigot right-wing terfs' and whatever other slurs come women's way for just saying no.

If they actually gave a shit about other people and not just their ego they'd spend a little time thinking about it all.

Absolutely, Ballerina.

For me my negative experience with a 'transwoman' (briefly: I encountered one wanking in a ladies' toilet, when I was 17) is not actually even at the forefront of my concerns (although it does give me a bit of a response when people go on about toilets and 'we just want to pee').

There wil always be predators, and vulnerable people on society's margins, some of whom will seek out vulnerabilities in the law/rules/societal boundaries, many of whom need help and some of whom will concurrently need managed or boundaries put in place.

What concerns me far more is when regulators, governments and organisations collude to disregard women and attack, fire, undermine, threaten, abuse, ignore, ridicule and smear anyone who objects or asks questions.

'Trans' or 'gender' is the McGuffin. The problem here is power, and who is allowed to have it. How the media is allowed to report. How language is being compelled and controlled. Who is being silenced. Who is being disbelieved and ignored. Who is being monstered and excluded. Who is presenting ideology in the place of evidence. Who is being listened to and fawned over. That is't all about 'trans' people at all, it's about people who are willing and able to recite certain mantras and catechisms.

No child should be sterilised in the name of 'gender'. No woman should be forced to share an intimate space with a male against her will. No one should lose their job because they refused to pretend that people can change sex.

From a TRA perspective? Absolutely refusing to engage in any sort of debate. Screen shots to publically blast on Twitter etc. IME there is def more doxxing.

Do report any bigotry you see.

I think some people think it's extremist when women say that they don't identify as women, they just are one because of their body type and that no males should be in female spaces. I personally don't agree that either of those positions are extremist.

This is so true and the fact that the NHS continue to use the word man but obfuscate the word woman is clear evidence of the fact that this is about women not having a voice.

There is nothing wrong with being a lesbian.

Yes. We often see people trying to claim that a woman on here 'misgendering' a man is the exact equivalent to, say, rape and death threats that women get.

It's not.

Critical thinking isn't valued atm, but having the 'right' opinion.

So people don't think, they just studiously argue for their side or, if they are really backed into a corner, name-call and ask 'Why do you even care?', and get patted on the head for arguing for their team.

It's actually really depressing/scary, and not just relevant to this issue.

And that makes you lesbians. I'm a lesbian. I'm allowed to say this.

I ask you to stop colluding in the lie that tells butch and non-gender-conforming lesbians that they're men. They are not. You should be proud to be lesbians. If you aren't, you're homophobic.

Pretending that one of you is a man in order to reap the advantages of appearing to be straight is deeply offensive to all the lesbians fighting for lesbian existence, let alone rights. It's also the way they do things in Iran. Do you really think Iran is progressive?

Understanding that sex isn't an attitude, a feeling, a performance, a costume, or body parts repurposed or purchased à la carte and that it can't be changed doesn't make a person hateful, just sane and tethered to reality. Onnce we accept transgender ideology, the “logic” pushes it down a path where we have to reject child safeguarding, evidence-based medicine, biological reality, women’s rights, and LGB rights, in order to remain consistent.

This sums up the objections perfectly.

We are so used to people changing themselves; skin colour lighter darker, younger, older it’s hard to understand that biological sex is an actual immovable fact.

And attacking women (physically as well as verbally) at Speaker's Corner, LWS events

And blockading entrances to public buildings to stop women watching films (University of Edinburgh, 3 times)

And announcing to a cheering crowd that terfs 'deserve to be punched in the face' (Sarah Jane Baker)

And seen elected representatives standing smirking under a sign which said 'decapitate terfs' (Glasgow event)

And forced women out of employment (various ET's)

Surrounded venues and banged on windows and walls while women talked about women's issues, shouted abuse at attendees of a completely different event because it was in the same vicinity (various WP events)

And of course this - www.terfisaslur.com

I whole heartedly agree with you, and I say this as someone who probably on the other side of the fence than most here.

If you've been watching this issue for a while you won't fail to see the political implications and entanglements.

For example in Scotland, we have a current Tribunal of a Rape Crisis Centre that previously had a Green MSP as CEO, discussing rape victims being gaslighted and lied to.

Yes, women have suffered because of these policies - women have been turned away from accessing support, excluded, smeared, labelled 'bigots', and a woman lost her job.

(Which is undeniably wrong and awful - hence the Rape Crisis Scotland statement that throws ERCC under the bus in a transparent attempt to evade responsibility.)

What is also concerning is how a cabal of people operate at the head of various government funded organisations, working closely with the Scotgov, acting as experts, responding officially to consultations, supporting/propping up policy, making statements in support of the government. How the police are involved, the judiciary, etc.

And one might note that journalist has been imprisoned for reporting on a Scotgov court case, for example. The Green MSP was found to have breached parliamentary rules for failing to declare her interests. Etc.

This is corrosive and damaging to our democratic institutions, it erodes trust in our society generally, imo it's a sign that politically things are very rotten and need to be exposed.

Then there's the organisations like LGBTYS, who are currently being investigated by Police Scotland for safeguarding breaches.

Etc. Etc. I could go on for hours.

Anyone who suggest that this is just a matter of 'be kind' or some very broad brush ideas about 'gender' is either woefully under informed or being incredibly naive, or both, I'm afraid.

Yes. We often see people trying to claim that a woman on here 'misgendering' a man is the exact equivalent to, say, rape and death threats that women get.

Exactly.

But women on here saying 'erm, hang on, the single sex exemptions in the EQA 2010 are being disregarded by lobby groups giving incorrect advice and so women are self excluding from services they need, women in prison are being incarcerated with violent, male sex offenders on the behest of an official policy endorsed by the Scottish Government, and women's sporting records are being decimated by mediocre male athletes' is somehow the other end of that 'extremism'?

Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

For those who say that they, or those they know are unaffected….

i was very active in girl guiding. The rules changed — it isn’t single sex anymore. It is single gender. Been discussed ad infinitum in here. GGUK won’t tolerate dissent. Faced with the possibility I’d have to take a sexually mature male on a camp, to share with sexually mature females (guides and rangers) and would NOT be allowed to mention this to parents.

i did a personal risk assessment and thought…. Naaah. Fuck this. And just quietly stepped back. Citing personal reasons. I have a busy life like so many people do so no one questioned it. Three other long standing leaders in my district have similarly eased themselves out. For the same reason.

the rainbow, ranger and guide units all folded for lack of leaders. The brownie pack is in danger similarly. We’re rural, it’s a long drive to the nearest one now. So that’s perhaps 50 girls a year now NOT getting the benefits of guiding. No pack holidays, no camps. Us leaders were keen hikers. We used to teach the girls map reading, navigation, survival stuff, a huge range of genuinely useful outdoor safety skills.

you probably are affected … you just don’t know it. Yet.

(And I was also a referee for a contact sport that categorises by gender. Not sex. I still follow the refs Facebook groups. Matches are being cancelled due to lack of officials. But I can’t think why)

So have I, most recently a few weeks ago. This was not someone weaker or more vulnerable than me.

Bolleauxxxx I'm really sorry to hear that. I know locally our Brownies and Guides have quietly folded. I wonder if it's related.

This is the silent effect that will be hard to quantify. How many women self exclude from services? How many groups will lose members and eventually quietly fold? How many people are withdrawing from certain situations, avoiding certain organisations, groups, places - just stopping?

What are women losing, do we even know?

Also I just realised I did a big rant upthread, apologies.

My point was that lots and lots of people avoid or are 'complacent' about politics and social issues.

Some people are willing to put in effort to try and improve society and change things, some don't have the resources, or time, or will. I wouldn't ever judge someone for not getting involved; god knows it would make for an easier life! I reserve judgement for those who actively work against women and children and fairness and safeguarding and equality.

I don't think calling a transperson by the gender they prefer is asking too much.

Twenty years ago I would not have thought this was a particularly contentious demand. Unfortunately these days such an apparent simple request is not a request but a demand, and a demand often loaded with an 'or else'.

This! There have been several threads from women who have stopped using their local gym because TW are using the women’s changing rooms & when they ask fir gym to do something they waffle, hand wave away and refuse. So those women just stopped going. Now how many women have just quietly self excluded?

how many women have quietly left women support groups on fb because TW have been admitted making it no longer for women?

how many women have quietly quit their women’s team because they’re now expected to play with & against TW?

Most women won’t make a fuss, they don’t complain to management, they don’t take up legal cases - they just quietly leave