Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

They could do this already though. I was in a women's toilet in a service station today. There were two men in there. They were cleaners. No one batted an eyelid because this is an absolutely normal sight. There isn't anything preventing men entering women's spaces currently, they can easily pretend to be someone who has a right to be there without pretending to be trans, or they can just walk in without bothering to pretend anything, and in practise that's what most predators would do. And it's still illegal to harass or assault someone in a toilet whether you're supposed to be in there or not, and you wouldn't escape prosecution for that by "crying discrimination".

Meanwhile, trans people have to pee somewhere and most of us recognise that and aren't interested in making them scapegoats for predators.

I'm more affected by the changing room one. I've recently had to stop using the leisure centre I really liked, that offered affordable and great quality classes, at times I could access.

I had to stop because being an older building they only have communal changing rooms, so a large room with benches and lockers for women and a large room with benches and lockers for men.

They confirmed recently that their policy is that a woman is anyone who says they're a woman.

Through my personal choice and my level of comfort/dignity/privacy, the only man who has ever seen me naked is my husband. So now I know that a man could walk into the womens changing room as and when they like, I can't use it. I also would never take my 9yo daughter to get changed in a room that any man can walk into as he pleases and expose his penis to her with the full permission of the Business.

No one wants trans people to not have anywhere to pee. They're welcome to use the toilets for their sex class. Are you suggesting though that we should just have mixed sex toilets given that apparently anyone can go into either toilet anytime they want?

Reminds me of a post on here some time ago, poster said she didn't want to share a bathroom with men no matter how they identify and another poster said, you share a bathroom with your dh don't you? Yes because that's the same. 🙄

Partner is labeled as a man on his ID so if he was arrested he'd be treated as a man. I don't love that.

If it were up to me matching genitals would go together. That means Transwomen with penis with men, and Transwomen who've had bottom surgery with women.

I think in terms of washrooms it's not necessarily naivete. I was a childhood sexual abuse survivor and a rape victim. I never have a sense of security anywhere. If a man wants to hurt women and children nothing will stop that.

Why not use on a school curriculum?

Oh maybe it's because so many 'teachers' are brainwashed idiots not fit to teach our youngsters?

How many of you have ever had a real life negative encounter with a trans person?

Not that it would justify the vitriol, it’s the question I always ask people who are claiming the problem is the people with less power than them, not those with more.

More women than you think as demonstrated on threads here. Most of us come here because we have had bad experiences with gender ideology or people claiming to be transgender.

The reasin I say 'people claiming' is because my experiences are with people who are part of the new self id transgender as opposed to the older generation of transsexuals.

I also don't think these people have less power. The policies and defence of these people by organisations and the casual put downs of women to shut up and put up shows this. A compromise is never offered.

What makes you think men have less power than women?

In my own experience I think because sometimes things can be true at the same time and women are not a monolith.

Women can believe that trans women are women, they likely know trans women who they know to be good and genuine people which helps form that opinion. They can empathise with the desire to be seen as female, can recognise that gender dysphoria would be distressing to experience and see people living happier better lives as their chosen gender. They don't want to see those people hurt or suffering. I fall into this category and I've never met a trans man or woman who I felt to be anything less than genuine and lovely people. I've known them through their transition and I've seen the massive improvement in their mental health post transition. I find that a lot of gc forums focus a lot on the negatives around transition and they leave out that for a lot of people it actually works very well for them. I find it sad when that comes at the expense of their family though. Or where it leaves them vulnerable due to loss of those support networks.

Simultaneously they can also recognise that other women may struggle with this and it can cause challenges in female only spaces predominantly because of harmful men who may exploit the concept of being trans to meet their own harmful needs at the expense of women.

But they struggle to engage with GC platforms because of the vitriol that exists against trans women (i know trans people can be vitriolic against gc women too - it works both ways) and they find it offensive and see the harm that can cause to the genuine and decent trans people they know in real life and don't want to be a part of that. So there is no space for them and they can't engage in the conversation without being shut out of it. I've never felt welcomed or like my point of view was respected or welcomed in such a platform, it's always a pile on to convince me I'm wrong. I know all the arguments, I've read the information and I've formed my own opinion. So I guess you'd see me as complacent.

I just take issue with posts like this that use the term ' trans nonsense' and other offensive terms and opinions being presented as fact in disrespectful ways which I see happen all the time in these types of forums. Sometimes it's not so much a complacency, as feeling stuck. I don't think it's acceptable for women to feel unsafe in a homeless shelter for example, but I also don't think it's acceptable that trans people feel unable to access any homeless accommodation because they aren't safe in men's shelters and don't feel they fit in womens shelters. Noone should be left homeless and vulnerable.

I also massively take issue with the issue that this is really only an argument that affects trans people who don't 'pass' as their chosen gender. I know a number of trans people who absolutely do pass and it would be nonsensical to place them in a womens shelter for example. The bathroom issue is a prime example for this as well. So really the entire argument comes down to appearance and I'm not comfortable with judging people based on their appearance. I don't feel it's enforceable in that respect unless everyone has individual non cubicle toilets in public spaces which again isn't realistic for many businesses due to space. So I don't feel that I've arrived at a suitable solution that meets all needs.

I think that’s definitely it for some - I was talking to someone just like this the other day. A lovely person in lots of ways but shockingly naive, to the point of being bigoted in her own way.

She went full Layla Moran when I asked her how she could distinguish between “genuine” “TW” and predators exploiting the loophole (who she had acknowledged exist) and said quite angrily, you can just sense these things, you can see it in their eyes!

She said she genuinely wouldn’t have a problem getting changed/showering alongside a penis bearer - and I know she regularly uses a facility which is all completely open plan - because if he identifies as a woman, he is a woman, afasc.

But couldn’t say what a woman is, of course.

She also, interestingly, thought it was impossible for gay men to be misogynistic. I remember thinking that gay men were all allies to women myself - because they didn’t want to sleep with us and often got treated like crap by men themselves, I guess.

But that was a very long time ago and I was very young when I thought that; experience soon taught me that while some gay men are utterly lovely, there are others whose misogyny is quite breathtaking.

I was surprised that she as a middle aged woman hadn’t got to that realisation.

Maybe that’s part of it. She seemed to pride herself on having lots of “LGBTQ” friends, including of course the obligatory “my lovely trans friends™️”; maybe she’s been exceptionally lucky in her male friends.

Or maybe she just doesn’t always realise when her male friends are taking the piss/using her. I had a gay male BFF I thought the world of for years, until I finally copped onto the fact that I, like all the other women in his life, was just a service human to him.

As you say, Wellies, these women have no clue!

Very good question, Old Crone.

Adult human male people do seem to have had, and still have, rather more power than adult human female people, across the ages.

I wonder if that’s why some people are so keen to gloss over the fact that all male people are, in fact, male, by referring to some of them as “trans” instead.

Handy way of obscuring the real balance of power/axis of oppression, isn’t it!

@Seasmoke7 i agree with everything you’ve said, 100%. The assumption. That if you don’t have any problem with people being trans you must be stupid/privileged/pretentious is deeply patronising.

The only thing I have a problem with DontLean is male people being in female spaces.

Their being “trans” is of zero interest to me, except insofar as they’re using that label to get around the fact they’re male, and insist on right of access to female spaces.

Reading a few articles by Owen Jones will take care of the gay men/misogyny view.

It is not not supporting trans people, my support is just not affirmation of children deciding they are trans and rejecting men who are certainly not 'lovely and sweet transwomen', who are detroying the goodwill there was previously.

The one thing that strikes me about women who don't share the same viewpoint that GC women have, is that they often do see the issues with the removal of single sex services and sports, but try to balance on the fence. Where do the transwomen go, because they can't go with the men? Yes, it is awful for women who can't now use those services and sports that were meant for them. So sad.

They never ever have a solution that also works for women.

@Seasmoke7 It's not patronizing to say people don't have a clue. It's not meant in a derogatory way. I absolutely acknowledge that most women are concerned with other perfectly valid things and are simply not aware of what is happening at policy level.

It is patronizing to say that I or anyone else thinks all trans people are predators or that we have some sort of moral objection towards gender nonconformity. Many of us have friends or relatives who are trans and we understand the struggle some people have personally with their identity.

It is correct to say that women are losing rights and that people do not know about this. The only requirement to be a trans woman is to be a male who declares they identify as female. Policies in the NHS, schools, the police, domestic violence shelters, sports, which set out that organisations commitment to recognizing sex in order to protect women have all been quietly rewritten to make it acceptable for ANY man to access a place or service which is described as being for women. It may not affect you or me today or tomorrow, but like all safeguarding loopholes it will have devastating consequences for some women and girls who should have been protected.

Children are also being groomed in schools, online and in friendship groups to believe that if they feel they don't fit in and don't conform to stereotypes there is something wrong with their body which must be medically altered or they will end up committing suicide

If you don't believe it, if you don't think it affects you, if you think we're all strangely bigoted and prejudiced and obsessed, fine. I don't care.

Lots of love to all you amazing women (and some men) who DO understand what is happening and why it matters and will put up with the insults because we care about children and safeguarding and women's rights. xxxxxx

There's a privilege to thinking that the trans issue is the most pressing issue that many women face.

And there's a privilege to throwing other, more vulnerable women, under the bus to virtue signal, when you know you're unlikely to end up in a women's shelter or prison.

Sea smoke and Josette thank you for posting, I for one am extremely interested to hear the ‘other side’ of the debate. I want to be able to ask questions and have a good faith discussion. Unfortunately, the posters we do get tend not to engage with the questions they are asked, and this then looks like there are actually no reasonable answers.

Josette my definition of woman has always been adult human female. I’m actually happy to change my definition (obviously I can’t speak for anyone else), but we still need a word which means that, and which would include your partner, so that we have the language to have sensible discussions ( I don’t think ‘transmen and women, but not transwomen’ is a reasonable substitute in conversation). Female was tried, but some prominent transwomen quickly adopted it. Assigned female at birth is obviously problematic, as nobody is ‘assigned’ a sex. What word could be used which would not be seen as offensive?

Seasmoke, I agree that relatively few women have been directly affected - although I suspect very many more than is generally realised, given that most women with either withdraw or comply despite their discomfort. Nobody is measuring the number of women whose lives are now more limited.

However, there are statistically orders of magnitude more male predators than transwomen, so women have to be cautious about men presenting as women in single-sex spaces or in positions of authority with children and vulnerable adults. I’m not going to allow my daughter to eg go on guide camp with a trans guide leader, and the vague suggestion that any issues can just be reported afterwards have obviously not been properly though through!

I think redefining women to mean “adult human female and men who may adopt but don’t have to stereotypical ‘feminine’ presentation & mannerisms” affects alll women at an absolutely fundamental level

i I think it’s embarrassing that some women are happy to see themselves reduced to a set of stereotypes performed by men (because that’s all it takes to be a woman) and who then prioritise those men over other women

I get this, this was me until my eyes were opened and brain engaged. I hate that this has become a left vs right issue, and that it will be used more and more against Labour as the GE is announced.
My turning point was properly reading what JKR had written, then reading, thinking, and questioning. Being honest, Had that not happened no doubt I would have stayed where I was

See, these issues thankfully don't affect me day to day (yet). For that I'm grateful. There are however plenty of women and girls that are affected by -

• The insistence to allow biological boys and men to play on female teams in sport including grass roots. How is taking these opportunities away from females not hateful?

• Lying to young people that humans can change sex and cheerleading them onto a medicalised pathway. Pathways which require perfectly working body parts removed to be replaced by pretend ones? Taking away the chance of sexual pleasure. How is this not hateful?

• Women being sacked from their jobs for stating biological facts. How is this not hateful?

I think what would be helpful if any single person was willing to offer a definition of woman which included women and tw but excluded transmen and did not in any way rely on stereotypes which women find highly offensive. You know that most others would agree about the homeless shelter? but the issues in male shelters is not a reason to let any male who feel unsafe (tw, gay men) into women's shelters and of course women will be angry if people try and force them out of their own space.

I don’t hate transpeople. They can dress and behave how they like. Though they should respect sex segregated spaces and campaign for third, neutral spaces where needed.
Transactivists have brought this issue to the front, though.

I am not in the UK, so recently my country had its first situation where a young man, who says he is a woman and therefore must be written about as a woman, killed his male partner and got arrested.

I know plenty of vulnerable women in and out of prison. It is not a good prospect that any of them should serve time with this young and clearly very aggressive individual. Many of them have suffered much abuse, some of them need a lot of help. But afaik transwomen are women by law in my country too. So it looks like this killer will go in the female estate.

I am unlikely to go to prison, though it could happen, but this is not only about me. It is about safety and dignity for all women.
As you can see from reports in real time in the US and the UK, women incarcerated with TW do suffer sexual assaults, rapes and unwanted pregnancies. The TW’s have intact and fully functioning penis‘ clearly.

So I don’t hate transwomen or transmen, but we need to be realistic about consequences and women’s and girl’s safety and dignity takes priority here.

This is the heart of it.