Evidence re GC women and white supremacism please?

[Froodwithatowel]

I'll quote JCJ here as I do not want to derail the other thread:

From my, and many other people's observation, over the last couple of years, the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

It is not easy to make sense of that X thread, but this statement is one I want information on. I don't do parroting, I believe in critical thinking, evidence and independence of thought, and I have learned to be deeply cautious of being accidentally vaccuumed into the 'so and so smells so do what I tell you' strategies so very tediously rife at the moment to get people in line and useful to others, we live in very grotty times.

So please would some kind person provide me with evidence that women wanting rights, equality and single sex spaces are entangled with religious extremism and white nationalism? Actual evidence. Not aspersions, but evidence.

Racism is black people's fault now?

It is men who are racing in women's races that make people question whether when reports say 'women' do they really mean men.

The words are right there.

The Black males who keep winning women's athletic events (DSDs, not trans, FTAOD) look like men though. I'm White and can easily distinguish them from Black women, who do not look at all masculine to me.

Hard to deduce racism or its absence from a single data point, though.

Why on earth would you be posting on here if you don’t know? A trans women is a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Look up the EqA. You really don’t need me to tell you.

And the reason this is leading to more black women than white being accused of being male is???????

From my understanding many of these people were born any raised as girls as far as they knew and tend to come from countries without the health care we take for granted. I don't think they are in any way the same as males who transition in the UK and then participate in women's sports.

Because men are running in women's races and people cannot trust news reports that say a woman won a race.

You understand when I say race I mean a competition of running right? Where people run specific distances and the one that gets there first is the winner?

Athletes with DSDs aren't the same as those claiming a transgender identity but it's not true that they didn't know about their DSDs. Sports agents cynically scout for individuals in areas known to have high instances of DSDs. It's very clear from Caster Semenya's autobiography, for example, that Semenya and everyone around Semenya knew way before Semenya entered professional athletics. There are photos of Semenya wearing the boys uniform at school, and topless at the beach in swimming trunks on a school trip aged 15. They absolutely knew.

If 'A trans women is a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment', what is a woman in that definition? Cos I think you just described a transman

Touché 😎

Are there areas of high DSD? More likely in some parts of the world than others? Do you have evidence of that?

Well, I think you're both right. Different countries have different ways of dealing with 46 XY DSDs, ranging from leave well alone to gonadectomy, cosmetic surgery and oestrogen treatment.

I agree that putting them into female competitions is cynical, and wonder about the effects on their health of androgen suppression.

ETA it's equally prevalent everywhere AFAIK- just dealt with differently

Actually, looks like there might be some clustering:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The fact you don’t think trans women are women shouldn’t stop you parsing a simple English sentence

Sally is a transgender woman, so Sally has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Sally, in this example, is the woman.

Transgender, like gay, white or disabled is an adjective.

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Trans women are not women buddy. They are men. They will always and forever be men. No paperwork changes someone's sex. No surgery changes someone's sex.

Most MTFs don't even have a GRC so they idea that they are "a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment" is patently false. Under the Equality Act they are men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

As ppl said a "woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment" is a biological female who identifies as a man, or arguably a man with a GRC to say he's changed his "gender" to a woman.

I believe so. I read that where Semenya was born it is a known condition. That is why Ekkart Arbeit was there scouting.

I don't believe that April Ashley was a gay man. She would have been accepted by more people if she had been. If you think about Brian Epstein, he was accepted in the 1960s by the people who mattered. There was a gay subculture in port cities like Liverpool. Very few people changed sex, April was a pioneer.

I don't believe that gay men in Iran change sex so that they can legally have sex with men.

Jan Morris was emotionally abusive to her daughter but not physically or sexually abusive. I don't see how that is relevant to the fact that she was trans.

I would say that being trans is not a mental illness or a lifestyle choice. It is part of a range of personality characteristics such as sexual orientation and personality traits. We don't really know why people are different, it probably has a genetic component. It doesn't really matter why, we just have to accept that some people are different.

I have read three books that criticise trans beliefs. Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier which despite its title is good. She seems to care about trans people which is more that you can say about Stock or Joyce's books. They do seem to want to make women afraid of trans women.

I don't believe that gay men in Iran change sex so that they can legally have sex with men.

You are technically correct. Gay men in Iran undergo extreme body modification as an alternative to being executed for being gay.

I've seen something similar.

I'm not "afraid" of men who claim to be women, I just don't believe their claim.

There are two things you might mean by that. One is that a convicted man might avoid execution in Iran by being willing to undergo surgery. That seems not to be the case. One article said "All now face death by public hanging. It’s too late for them to exploit a loophole in Sharia Law."

The other thing you might mean is that some gay men are worried they might be detected and want to avoid the consequences of that by surgery. That doesn't seem to be true either.

What is true is that people are pushed into gender reassignment when it is unsuitable for them. They are not given the correct information or advice. None of this has anything to do with Liverpool in the 1960s.

I'm glad that you're not afraid of biologically-intact transwomen trying to get you into bed. This is one of the three things that Helen Joyce objects to.

If you were in prison you could be frightened of sharing a cell with a transwoman. That would be understandable. There should be compromises that keeps everyone happy and solves the problem but people on the extremes don't want them. The same with women's safe spaces.

You can believe what you like. There are some people who believe that not only are trans people mentally ill or perverts but that gay people are too. That's not so good for people like Kathleen Stock so perhaps it would be a good idea for her to think about where the support for certain issues important to Radical Feminists is coming from.

Ok so in that definition, what is a woman? What characteristics do all people in the category 'woman' share that no one excluded from the category have? What do you have to have/do/be, to be a woman?

Words matter.