Evidence re GC women and white supremacism please?

[Froodwithatowel]

I'll quote JCJ here as I do not want to derail the other thread:

From my, and many other people's observation, over the last couple of years, the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

It is not easy to make sense of that X thread, but this statement is one I want information on. I don't do parroting, I believe in critical thinking, evidence and independence of thought, and I have learned to be deeply cautious of being accidentally vaccuumed into the 'so and so smells so do what I tell you' strategies so very tediously rife at the moment to get people in line and useful to others, we live in very grotty times.

So please would some kind person provide me with evidence that women wanting rights, equality and single sex spaces are entangled with religious extremism and white nationalism? Actual evidence. Not aspersions, but evidence.

You always post exactly these same points to try to convince us all of how wonderful prostitution is. None of it works: if I were you, I’d just not bother.

"GC" is quite a different position to the view of gender that conservative Christians would have.

Yes, they would have a shared opinion on certain things like you should define "man" and "woman" by biology in the traditional way, or that it's unfair for women to compete against biological males in sport.

However that is a shared opinion not just with conservative Christians, but much more widely with the general population, and across the political spectrum.

Of course, even if it was just "GC feminists" and "evangelical Christians" that were advocating that we define "man" and "woman" by biology, this wouldn't tell us much about the truth of the claim.

It's always possible that "false statistics" could be used in the trans debate, (by either side), but I doubt the core GC position really depends on anything like that.

Fairness in sports is a scientific/empirical question, but the definition of "man" and "woman" or the right to single sex spaces don't really depend on "statistics" that I can see.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that prostitution is wonderful. I'm trying to alert people to the harm that certain policies to do with prostitution do. We have enough statistics to show that the Nordic model increases the amount of prostitution in society. If I thought that prostitution is wonderful then I would be happy with an increase, but I don't so I'm not.

I'm surprised that so many people continue to support the Nordic model. It can't have anything to do with a concern for women's welfare. The statistics have been around for a long time, but I have just found the most recent ones.

There was a survey in Sweden in 2017. It showed that 1.5% of Swedish women have been paid for sex. This is much higher than in any of the previous surveys. In 1996, three years before the start of the Nordic model, the figure was 0.3%.

I agree with you that statistics aren't any help in resolving issues to do with gender.

I disagree with you about the attitudes of the general population. Most people accepted trans women in the past when it was April Ashley, Jan Morris and people like that. What they don't accept today is the idea that there are many genders and that people can change gender at will.

They don't believe that being trans is a mental illness or a perversion. Kathleen Stock seems to believe that it is. She calls it autogynephilia. You can be sure that the Evangelicals will start using this term before too long. They think that being trans or homosexual is a mental illness or a perversion. Radical Feminists should not encourage this way of thinking because it will come back to harm them. Just like they shouldn't have engaged in cancel culture in the past.

Good grief, what a mixed up post.

April Ashley was gay, at a time when gay men could be imprisoned just for being gay. 'Changing sex' was one way out of their problem and one way gay men could be 'accepted'. This still happens in places like Iran today.

Jan Morris was a heterosexual man who treated his wife and children appallingly. The true extent of his abuse only came out after his death when his daughter wrote about his behaviour.

They don't believe that being trans is a mental illness or a perversion.

The general population? Surely most people think that gender dysphoria is a debilitating illness and that sufferers need medical treatment. What do you think they think it is? A lifestyle choice?

Kathleen Stock seems to believe that it is. She calls it autogynephilia.

She didn't invent this term. I think it was Ray Blanchard who first came up with that word to describe heterosexual males who transition because they are aroused by the thought of themselves as women.

Not all trans people are AGP. It only applies to heterosexual males, particularly the late transitioners. There are various other issues going on with younger people of both sexes.

Going by this post you've got a lot of catching up to do. I recommend Helen Joyce's book 'Trans'.

And here we have it. A group of people from this forum speculating that a black woman is a man (despite being 5 foot 3) because she doesn't look like a white woman.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5021135-another-athletics-one

And there we have it. When you run out of arguments, you call people racist.

No, that thread is horrifying. The athlete in question had her sex questioned by posters simply because she doesn't appear feminine. (And, by the way, is breaking athletic records and is black.) They aren't doing that to white athletes at the same meet who are also breaking records, are they? Why? Because they, unlike her, have more markers of femininity.

That is the fault of the mediocre males who have trashed women's sports, the sporting bodies who have allowed it, and the MSM who have obfuscated about it in obedience to an ideology which harms women.

It harms all women.

This is fair comment.

Trust and faith that competition is fair has been totally undermined. The creditability, integrity and worth of elite women's sport has been hugely damaged. That has ramifications for women's sport at all levels.

Worse still this impacts most on black women because racism IS a factor and it's black women who are under greatest scrutiny because they are most likely to fall under suspicion as their faces and bodies are least likely to conform to western driven ideas of feminity. We are literally looking for those stereotypical physical features a woman has. This has narrowed what we deem to be feminine and accept as feminine despite an ideal of being critical of gender, even if you decide to overlook the racism.

It is all round depressing. It is likely to decrease participation at all levels, given girls less to aspire to and have role models (who is going to want a role model who there is talk that they they might be a man about?) and black women and girls will avoid sport most because they will want to avoid being scrutinised most. It will also serve to make women and girls feel like they have to conform to gender stereotypes more - with those that don't becoming distressed and potentially mentally harmed because of it.

Nothing about that thread is good.

Deep Green Resistance, The GrayZone, Jimmy Dore, UK Column, The majority of Labour Party members, The Communist party, The SDP party, The Duran, Garland Nixon, Sabby Sabs, The Workers Party, That guy from the Green Party, Green Party members, Due Dissonance podcast; the list is endless.

I didn't call anyone racist or make any arguments. I just linked to a thread that shows what happens when GC views collide with the way society sees black women.

As much as I hate the men who have ruined women's sports, they are not responsible for the racism exposed on that thread.

All women are not harmed equally. Here you can an example showing black women bearing the brunt of issue and white women excusing themselves of being racist because men have behaved badly.

I agree with you that not all women are harmed equally, this is a perfect example of that. But if men had never been allowed to say they are women, and insert themselves into women's sports, would this instance have occurred? Maybe it would, it seems much less likely though.

Black women have been demonized for their looks and characterized as ugly and masculine for hundreds of years. That thread isn't the first time it has happened.

If this was really just about the men participating in women's then white women would be equally scrutinized but they are not.

Instead of trying to defend racism and pass the blame for it on to others then perhaps think of the impact this kind of rhetoric has on black women and young black girls. As as feminist I would assume this would important to you.

Did Martina Navratilova, for instance, not get called masculine and ugly? I was a kid in her hey day but I'm pretty sure she did. It's not defending racism to say that men inserting themselves into women's spaces has massively increased issues of women being suspected or criticised for not appearing feminine enough, in women's spaces.

GC people being racist about an athlete in a sport where transgender people are excluded is the fault of transgender people? Thank you for providing an example for the OP.

I have no idea who the person you cited is but something happening once to a white person isn't proof that it's not racist, epecially when it happens disproportionately to black women and plays into racist stereotypes that have been around for hundreds of years.

Ah DadJoke I'm glad you're here, I was hoping you could tell me what a transwoman is? I asked you twice on the other thread but maybe you didn't see

I agree, it does happen disproportionately to black women. As I said upthread, not all women are harmed the same.

This happens because of men surely, and their relentless overtaking of women's sports?

If men never did this, would anybody question the sex of a runner?

Yes, so the people doing it should take responsibility for their own racism which is leading them to question black women more than white woman.

Not quite. It happens at all because of men. But the people doing it do it more to black women because of white supremacy.

I've seen talk of experiments which show that people have more difficulty differentiating between the sexes of people of another race than they do for people of their own race - seen it in terms of e.g. 'this is why white people might more readily think a TW of another race is a woman & not trans'.

If this is true, & given that the UK is a mostly white-populated country, does this partly explain why more comments are made about black athletes than about white athletes? Do black observers ask the same questions about white athletes?

There's still the issue of whether these questions should be asked out loud/on SM.

Or because the men who seem to be the ones winning female athletics races are quite often black?