Evidence re GC women and white supremacism please?

[Froodwithatowel]

I'll quote JCJ here as I do not want to derail the other thread:

From my, and many other people's observation, over the last couple of years, the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

It is not easy to make sense of that X thread, but this statement is one I want information on. I don't do parroting, I believe in critical thinking, evidence and independence of thought, and I have learned to be deeply cautious of being accidentally vaccuumed into the 'so and so smells so do what I tell you' strategies so very tediously rife at the moment to get people in line and useful to others, we live in very grotty times.

So please would some kind person provide me with evidence that women wanting rights, equality and single sex spaces are entangled with religious extremism and white nationalism? Actual evidence. Not aspersions, but evidence.

🙄
Everyone has a range of beliefs*. Some of them I will agree with wholeheartedly, even if I totally disagree with either beliefs held by the same person. I might not even like someone, but still find I agree with them on some issues. Everyone knows this, they need to in order to navigate day-to-day life. Therefore, every time I hear the “GC is linked with xxx” I assume the speaker (writer) has run out of logical arguments (which tends to happen quite quickly when it comes to the GI point of view)

*NB, I don’t think the fact that humans can’t change sex counts as a belief - it is just a fact

As an atheist, raised in a multi faith, multi-cultural household (am white, but was adopted, raised muslim), who has flip-flopped either side of the centre line politically depending on the issue at hand, I’d also be grateful to see the evidence. Strangely, personal experience of a trans IDing ASD child aside, my position is largely informed by my non-white, non Christian influences. I’d hate for my Aunties to be compromised in hospital or the swimming pool.

I was responding to a post which patronising told me to "pop over" with that comment. Not you, unless you've had a name change fail. It's actually quoted in my post so I would have thought it was obvious why I used that phrase.

Can GC women be capable of racism? Yes. Just as trans activists and gender identity believers can be. Anyone can be a racist.

Does that mean GC views = white supremacist? No. Only thicko or someone with an agenda would say so.

I wasn't patronising you I was asking you to state what you were basing your comments on.

If people are racist on the Black Mumsnetters board, why are you not reporting these comments? Why is it the fault of the feminist board what goes on, on the Black Mumsnetters board?

So how many people need to agree with two things for someone to conclude that anyone believing in one thing MUST THEREFORE also agree with the second thing?
Why don't we just treat each individual as believing the things they actually believe rather than lazy assumptions?

I would look like an idiot if I said that I know two vegetarians who also hate cyclists therefore all veggies hate cyclists.

What does 'merging spaces' even mean? Why can no-one ever just say clearly what they actually mean?!

Gender critical women are about as homogenous as women with brown eyes.

Some of them are racists. Some of them are right wing. Some of them are dyed-in-the-wool lefty feminists. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thanks for posing the question OP, I’m fed up of this accusation being thrown at women who aren’t in the WPUK or Radical Notion milieu.

JCJ is an intelligent woman so I have no idea why she keeps making this accusation; she should either know better than to repeat this nonsense or she should get out of her middle-class academic circles more often and talk to 'normies' 🤷‍♀️

Well, I'm not white. Am I not "properly " GC, or some sort of Uncle Tom (Aunty Tom) who hates their own skin colour and thinks whites are superior?

I think its just that in our society, calling someone a nazi or a fascist is a pretty awful insult, so the gender people like to use it freely. If they were in Reception, they'd call us all a bunch of smelly-bum poo poo heads. It's much the same thing when you consider the source.

Iirc BoiledBeetle has the money and will distribute it just as soon as she compiles a definitive list of who is entitled to it.

I read some of the Black Mumsnetters thread at the time although I wouldn't post on there because it's not intended for me.

I didn't interpret it as saying GC women were any more racist than anyone else. The take away point for me was to do with co-opting race as a debating tactic. As I remember, several posters felt that far too many white people only talk about race when it's useful to them. That did make me stop and think and I've avoided using that argument ever since.

I'd be really grateful for some education here. What is the problem with this comparison (which I've made myself previously)? If it is 'problematic' (loathe that word) I'll obviously not repeat but would be genuinely grateful for an explanation.

Ah, just seen this - thank you, that makes sense.

Links, please. I'd like to see those threads and know who the people are making those comments.

JCJ has written much about her concern with the idea that the right-wing anti-feminist reasons for opposing gender identity ideology will merge with the left-wing feminist reasons, and that this, then, will introduce all sorts of nasty bigotry into the gender-critical movement.

This is certainly how some tras see things, and the danger that their view will prevail within the wider public does exist, of course. On the other hand, I have seen racist comments from the trans activists on what used to be Twitter and not from any of the gc feminists.

The real dilemma, for me, is that I don't see how we can avoid the fact that two (or more) completely different motivations result in two (or more) different groups opposing the gender identity ideology, and that in at least one case the motivations are diametrically opposite:

The anti-feminist right (often not just male-supremacist but also white-supremacist) needs female people to be clearly named and defined so that their subjugation is easier, while gender-critical feminists need female people to be clearly named and defined so that they can organise politically and otherwise to fight those very subjugation attempts.

It's a bit like two duelists meeting at dawn in some park in Germany two hundred years ago: they both want the guns, but for opposite reasons. Or like the opposite reasons why anti-racists movements and racist movements both need names for the racial group experiencing oppression.

I don't think you can keep the two fronts clearly separated all the time online, but we do need to condemn bigotry when we see it, to clarify where we stand.

As an aside, when the gender identity ideology was rising I was so disheartened by the fact that we were now going to face two fronts in the battle we have waged for so long: not only the old war against the anti-feminists, usually but not always from the political right, but also this new ideology from the political left. And these developments are just another aspect of that mess.

I should probably stress that I didn't join in the thread and that this is just my own take on what was said. But I thought it was a fair point.

If people are racist on the Black Mumsnetters board, why are you not reporting these comments? Why is it the fault of the feminist board what goes on, on the Black Mumsnetters board?

I note there are deletions on that thread but it's not clear why. Could have been breaking trans guidelines or racism.

this is a good outline.

Also that people who don't believe you can change sex come from all spheres. Some will be BNP.

I've posted a link up thread. The worst comments were deleted.

Mainly racism in this instance.

I read much of that thread.

There are accusations that (some) feminists are white supremacists, but no evidence.

What we're looking for here, as in the OP, is evidence of feminists pushing 'white supremacism' or fascism or whatever.

The link is to one thread only (and the comments have gone, so who knows who made them) but you implied it happened in this part of Mumsnet as well. I've never seen it, but if you have, I'd like to know who was involved in it.

oh God not this AGAIN

im very bored of being scolded by the likes of JCJ as if I can’t tell the difference between the reason why Matt Walsh doesn’t support TWAW (because he believes in strict sex based roles & gender stereotypes) and the reason Julia long for examples doesn’t believe TWAW (because she’s a life long feminist committed to busting gender stereotypes)

I agree with Nancy Kelley the sky is blue & with RMW that grass is Green, that doesn’t mean I’m suddenly a TRA

The majority of people acknowledge and live in the truth of biological reality. The vast majority.

It's the rare voice that breaks through the oppressive fog of intimidation and social ostracism that is societal institutional capture by Gender Ideology.

Then all of these voices are lumped together, because they are making the same statement of fact.

These facts has been common sense and knowledge until 5 minutes ago; But now when agreeing with any other group/individual that children need to be protected, as do women's rights and language, this is equated by bad actors to them agreeing on many other issues.

This is ridiculous guilt by association.

They are saying the same thing because it's scientific fact and what most people know and believe.

It's always twisted so that those representing biological truth and safeguarding are framed as groups of extremists uniting.

So “racist” goes together with “very Christian”? That’s news to me. The Christians I know have way less racist attitudes than the average around here.