Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Dating as a TERF

579 replies

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 14/12/2023 19:39

I'm a 34 year old female. I'm currently dating via Tinder.

When the gender issue has come up and I've mentioned that I'm a TERF, a lot of men have disengaged from me. I once went on three dates with a man, we got on great, and then when I mentioned my views on gender ideology, he ghosted me after!

Do you mention your stance up front or do you wait? I don't want to date anyone who thinks humans can change sex, is it worth stating this on my profile?

Any help/ advice/ insights appreciated.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
OceanicBoundlessness · 15/12/2023 14:19

@DC1888 I would be very grateful if you would explain what you mean by trans women are women?

I don't know if I understand what it means or not.

Let me explain..
Out of wanting to do the right thing I used to pretend that TWAW, but now I think I may have been bigoted as I didn't believe that and was just pretending it out of kindness. My understanding was that other people also pretended.

It completely blew my mind the first time I heard "trans woman are women". It was on the radio and I can still picture myself at the traffic lights realising that if I'd really believed a TW acquaintance to be a woman I'd have bought that person a bottle of booze like my other mates for their birthday rather than something stereotypically feminine that i felt showed I was supporting them in being trans and that would make them happier than the generic present because it was an affirming present.

So when they say trans women are women. It is about a firm belief? They're exactly the same? How does one juggle the cognitive disonnance? Is it about just accepting anyone who looks like they might be a trans woman can use any women's space and resources because then you're treating them like you believe they're a woman?

ArthurbellaScott · 15/12/2023 14:28

It is not 'extreme' to say that women have rights. Nor that there are only two sexes, and that it's not possible to change sex.

It's not 'sane' or 'middle ground' to suggest that men should be enabled, permitted, included or celebrated in women's spaces, sports, or rights.

Unless you are advocating for everything everywhere to be mixed sex, of course.

If there is a need for women to have certain things separate, then that has to be based on sex. There's no way of categorising people by 'gender' that makes any sense at all. It doesn't matter if a man really feels like he wants to be in with the women - he is not a woman, no matter what he says or feels or does.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 14:39

I think it has been well established now on MN and in expert debates, that 'middle ground' is not ever going to be a workable solution. Because there is no fucking middle ground. It is something that someone who has no fucking depth of understanding says to make themselves feel good and righteous.

Middle ground to them is like this 'case by case' solution. It is completely unworkable in real life. But again, it is like a panacea to those people who don't want to appear bigoted. I am at the point that unless a poster can explain the details of their own solution, them calling others extreme or bigots or whatever they feel makes them personally feel empowered and righteous, are people who have no critical thinking ability to actually analyse what they are saying. They say it as a defence mechanism.

They may even realise it is empty words, but cannot let go for fear of understanding that they themselves are bereft of that wonderful libertarianism they cling to. Because what they actively advocate for- harms women and children. They just don't want to admit it.

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 14:47

There is no middle ground between "trans women are women" and "trans women are not women".

Either they are or they aren't.

And if they are, I have no idea what one is, who is supposed to be in this group and why we need a word for it.

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 14:49

DC1888 · 15/12/2023 13:31

I think the major problem in regards to this issue is liberals (which I include myself) went extreme by basically saying anyone who says they are female, well fill yer boots, no evaluations, no nothing, you are now a female. This nutty policy then caused the other side to become extreme (terfs, "radical feminists", being an example.). MargotBamborough on this thread, this is the extreme end of the scale. As a society we lost the middle (sane/tolerant) ground.

The ridiculous ease with which people can change gender (for example in the Scottish bill which the UK Gov correctly blocked) caused the like of JK Rowling to speak out. The nutty proposals of the far left created this issue.

Huh?

What have I said that you think is in any way extreme?

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 14:52

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 13:41

And if you let the nice harmless lovely ones in, even if they've personally been soul-checked by Layla Moran on the door,

some women will still have to leave and not be able to use the resource. Because it will be mixed sex.

These women are tax payers. They are equally entitled to access and resources, that their taxes pay for.

You cannot think that it's ok to exclude some women from anything so that men can choose from everything unless you fundamentally believe in the supremacy of people born male. Outside of happy alternative realities, there's no getting around the fact that these women have needs too and this circle cannot ever be squared. The only answer is third spaces.

Edited

Except that many/most of them don't want third spaces because being in women's spaces is the whole point.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 15:00

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 14:52

Except that many/most of them don't want third spaces because being in women's spaces is the whole point.

Show quote history

Yes. As evidenced by the very clear refusal to stop using the female single sex spaces of the occasional male trans posters on MN FWR. They have consistently told us that they will not stop. Some of them will partly agree and
will use third spaces if they are there. But the others, no. They don't want to use third spaces. It 'others' them and they have stated very clearly that women have to learn to cope with their own distress because those male people refuse to 'cope' with their own distress.

They cannot be any more clearer. Yet, how many more times will we have some very kind person telling us that there really is a solution and we just have to keep trying.

duc748 · 15/12/2023 15:01

And 'be kind' and 'middle ground' are pretty much where the Labour Party are now. At best, some of them worse. And that's the next government.

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 15:03

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 14:52

Except that many/most of them don't want third spaces because being in women's spaces is the whole point.

Show quote history

Quite. But I have zero interest in the not wanting third spaces whining.

It makes everything clear. If the issue is accessibility, there it is. If the issue is wishing to use women as a consumable resource and remove their equality and access, the answer is obviously 'wtaf is the matter with you, absolutely not.'

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 15:06

duc748 · 15/12/2023 15:01

And 'be kind' and 'middle ground' are pretty much where the Labour Party are now. At best, some of them worse. And that's the next government.

Edited

yes duc. And notably there has been not one suggestion as to how any of their solutions work.

It is all placating talk with absolutely fuck all substance. And people just keep repeating it without realising how fucking absurd it is. It is just more mantras being laid on a foundation of mantras.

Glamourreader · 15/12/2023 15:23

Surely the middle ground is what we had a few years ago, facilities allocated by sex that allowed everyone to have access.

Prior to that only males had access to public toilets.

Shoving women out of their own facilities is not a middle ground.

DadJoke · 15/12/2023 15:45

It's a good thing to flag up on your profile to eliminate the large number of people who wouldn't date somone with those views. No matter how charming you are, people who support trans rights aren't going to want to date you. Saves a lot of time.

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 16:03

Is supporting trans rights not compatible with equality for women then?

ArthurbellaScott · 15/12/2023 16:06

duc748 · 15/12/2023 15:01

And 'be kind' and 'middle ground' are pretty much where the Labour Party are now. At best, some of them worse. And that's the next government.

Edited

Yep. This is the problem. Legislators SHOULD have a grasp and understanding of the conflict of rights, and how to navigate it.

Instead we have a lot of angry hot air about how horrible we all are, and absolutely no workable, practicable solutions to men who want to use women's spaces/rights.

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 16:09

And if the 'rights' wanted are in fact to end other people's rights, and equality of access, and even their visibility in law?

This is not a good thing. Or something wanted by decent people.

If we've reached a point in society where these 'large numbers of men' think women who want to retain equality are untouchably evil, then my God is society fucked up. And apparently, so are large numbers of men.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 16:11

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 16:03

Is supporting trans rights not compatible with equality for women then?

I think he has said the quiet bit out loud again....

DdraigGoch · 15/12/2023 16:12

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 14/12/2023 21:46

I don't want to announce that I'm GC on a first date as there's so much more to me than that. However, like it or not, a lot of people think that TWAW. I don't want to date those people. I would rather weed them out right away and not waste my time.

BTW, I see "TERF" as a compliment, which is why I'm happy to refer to myself as such. Go TERF Island!

It's not really any different to any other political view. I tend to steer clear of anyone who mentions politics in their profile, even if I may turn out to actually agree on individual views they hold. People who are that strong-minded to skip the usual social conventions on not talking about sex/religion/politics may turn out to be quite tedious.

Being more subtle - such as mentioning an author/sportsperson you really like who has been quite outspoken - is a good approach. It will filter out the TWAW devotees, plus anyone who lacks critical thinking and has swallowed "JKR is a bigot" without actually checking the validity of the claim. At the same time people who haven't really considered the issue will just read past it (as I do with any references I don't get) and base their decision on the rest of the profile, while those who agree with you will spot the reference.

Waitwhat23 · 15/12/2023 16:55

DadJoke · 15/12/2023 15:45

It's a good thing to flag up on your profile to eliminate the large number of people who wouldn't date somone with those views. No matter how charming you are, people who support trans rights aren't going to want to date you. Saves a lot of time.

'Oh no! The gender equivalent of flat earthers don't want to date me! What a world, what a world'.

SamW98 · 15/12/2023 17:00

DadJoke · 15/12/2023 15:45

It's a good thing to flag up on your profile to eliminate the large number of people who wouldn't date somone with those views. No matter how charming you are, people who support trans rights aren't going to want to date you. Saves a lot of time.

So should people who believe TWAW also put that on their dating profile to save anyone who deals with reality asking time on them?

EmpressaurusOfCats · 15/12/2023 17:22

SamW98 · 15/12/2023 17:00

So should people who believe TWAW also put that on their dating profile to save anyone who deals with reality asking time on them?

Show quote history

They’ll probably have their pronouns up, which is enough of a red flag.

InvisibleBuffy · 15/12/2023 17:46

EmpressaurusOfCats · 15/12/2023 17:22

They’ll probably have their pronouns up, which is enough of a red flag.

Show quote history

Yup. I pass on anyone with pronouns on their bio. It's a handy flag

MargotBamborough · 15/12/2023 17:49

DadJoke · 15/12/2023 15:45

It's a good thing to flag up on your profile to eliminate the large number of people who wouldn't date somone with those views. No matter how charming you are, people who support trans rights aren't going to want to date you. Saves a lot of time.

What does "supporting trans rights" mean?

Which rights specifically are you referring to?

InvisibleBuffy · 15/12/2023 17:51

Froodwithatowel · 15/12/2023 16:03

Is supporting trans rights not compatible with equality for women then?

Trans rights to... what exactly? I think you'll find most people here support trans rights if you mean basic human rights. It's trans entitlement that most of us have a problem with.
We often hear that rights aren't a pie, but it can be a good analogy.
Trans activists already have a slice in front of them. No one objects to that. It's them insisting that women give up their own hard won slice so that trans women can have double that's the problem.

Abhannmor · 15/12/2023 17:54

Thank you @MargotBamborough . Wish I had your energy. Always know I'm on terra firma with your posts.

SamW98 · 15/12/2023 18:10

EmpressaurusOfCats · 15/12/2023 17:22

They’ll probably have their pronouns up, which is enough of a red flag.

Show quote history

Yep pronouns and vaccine status on a dating profile both an instant swipe left