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Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 02:00

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 01:40

Priceless!

”Helleofabore seems to get desperately annoyed whenever I have the audacity to continue to exist as a happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points, hence the constant admonishment. Apparently I have no idea of the situation facing today's female-assigned adolescent cohort which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids (of all extremes between male and female) who have found their lives are now a political battleground.”

Again with the hyperbole. Ooohhh. The drama!

Nah mate. I am not ‘desperately annoyed’.

I am here, laughingly sometimes, I grant you, pointing out the very clear holes in your posts and the tactics you have used in the past and now. Including pointing out your misogyny. Which, of course, you cannot see.

No, your experience is nothing like the female adolescent experience of transition.

More misogyny right there in your claiming that your experience is anything like theirs. Your centring your own experience as being typical of theirs is so very harmful.

Along with a huge extra dollop of whatever anyone wants to point out is in these words. “which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids”. Vanity? Narcissism? Supreme need to tell us again how very important you are?

However, anyone who knows any child or adolescent who has declared a trans identity in the past years, knows that your experience, which many of us remember, is very much not representative of a female experience. At all. In any way.

I doubt it is also representative of a current adolescent male experience either. The vast majority don’t have the issues around puberty you have stated you have therefore, again, your centring yourself as being representative of their experience is harmful too. But not as harmful because at least you are male and you will have enough similarities to lessen the harm. It is still harmful however.

Yet, you have put yourself in this position of influence of these young people and you give them advice. And you claim to know what is best for them, by centring your own experience. But it is a repetitive cycle, isn’t it?

Anyone reading your posts over time can see you seem to have no care for others. Because, you have to insert your experience and centre yourself wherever you are. You make threads about you and claim victimhood to do so. Every time. But you simply cannot see it.

And that is fine. It is a free public forum where anyone can post. However, wherever you post, so will we. And we will note for readers your tactics and the flaws in your logic, and your misogyny. You are, after all, on a feminist board. Posting crap like how you are a “happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points”.

Our posts, because I am not alone in pointing out these tactics, flaws in logic, or misogyny, simply continue to point out that you have no experience as a happy successful ‘adult woman’. You do have the experience of a male person’s version of what they envision is womanhood based on their outsider’s view of womanhood. No one denies that.

But oh… the hyperbole! Apparently I deny your very existence! Again. No. I have never denied you exist. You are a male, who had issues with puberty, who has no female lived experience at all, but likes to portray yourself as having by describing yourself as ‘a woman’. A misapplied term because you are a male living your concept of what that term means, while never being able to live it in material reality.

”Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.”

This is a gift that keeps on giving! Your posts seem to try to refute what is so crystal clear to anyone who reads them. I think this sentence is a gem though! It should be framed.

I just noticed that I cross posted with Old Crone.

Mind you, we can all repeat it til the cows come home. The message will be brushed off. It always is.

We repeat it, as becomes typical, because it highlights to others which are the inconsistencies and dissonance that need to be unpicked every time. And so the cycle continues.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 02:25

Oh no! Sorry.

We repeat it, as becomes typical, because it highlights to others which are the inconsistencies and dissonance that need to be unpicked every time. The person whose words are being discussed, many times cannot acknowledge and take on baord what is said. For various reasons, including that it seems that women’s voices are not to be heard if they are countering a particular male perspective.

And so the cycle continues.

ArthurbellaScott · 09/12/2023 07:55

Just let women have our own spaces thanks, we are not interested in soi- disant pillars in this community.

Froodwithatowel · 09/12/2023 08:16

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 01:52

“This is a group who believe that although harms are happening and the issues are grim and children are among the most harmed, if they don't look and don't talk about it and pretend it's not happening and just ram it through quick, somehow things will.... well, I suppose come back to bite someone else and not them”

Yes Frood, this.

surely if legislation is strong, it will hold because it is based on material reality and will withstand robust analysis and discussion.

Although as evidenced on the prison thread by KPSS this morning - a depressing read - we are honestly as women dealing with a political lobby, a government, a prison service, and apparently the NHS and civil service and police too -

all of whom believe that women are just walking support animals, not fully human and the property of men. Hence all the sniffy dummy spitting when the therapeutic resource AI thingy says 'no, fuck off, I've got my own life over here and it does not revolve around mummying you.' And women whose lives revolve around men being happy with them are frantically trying to get the other service units back in line.

And they know. Most of them know that this is their core belief, because they are utterly terrified to have to get it out and own it, or face voters with it. But the energy and panic is all being spent on hiding it and still getting to do it, not to face up to their male supremacism and all it's grubby issues.

This is really what all the bullshit about 'assigned' means I suspect. Women are just units programmed at birth, and it's not like their reality matters, they don't have feelings or inner lives or anything, they're just walking biology and labour for male use, complete with the titillating attachments. You don't use this kind of language or behaviour to anyone you view as equally human.

#theserviceunitsarerevolting

Original poster
Signalbox · 09/12/2023 08:18

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 23:43

I'm not now, no. I was, however, one of the tiny number of GIDS referrals two and a half decades ago who was issued endocrine intervention, and I had already socially transitioned years prior to it.

AR gene mutation resulted in extremely sluggish delayed puberty; I struggled to pass as a boy even prior to social transition. Very similar presentation to cohort under complete suppression. I'm kicking myself now for not volunteering for longer term studies at the time - was so wary of infosec concerns and the possibility of inadvertent breaches that I disappeared from the radar as soon as it was practically possible.

Every time someone on the internet speaks the "this is a new experimental treatment; there is no evidence of long term outcomes and it is all just driven by a desire to trans away the gay" incantation they summon me from the shadows, however.

Helleofabore seems to get desperately annoyed whenever I have the audacity to continue to exist as a happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points, hence the constant admonishment. Apparently I have no idea of the situation facing today's female-assigned adolescent cohort which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids (of all extremes between male and female) who have found their lives are now a political battleground.

Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.

Show quote history

It’s just that this thread isn’t really about you and your own personal anecdotes. I think that’s called a derail which you seem to be quite good at. Perhaps you can add that to the list of your achievements and start a thread about how wonderful and happy you are elsewhere.

OP posts:
AutumnCrow · 09/12/2023 09:00

Thanks for that, @IcakethereforeIam.

The only thing Chris Bryant is 'traumatised' by is not getting his own way all the time.

Women meanwhile are being traumatised by having men invade their rights, freedoms, liberties and privacies, and children have been (and are being) traumatised by unnecessary surgical procedures and heavy-duty endocrinal interventions.

From his own words and actions, one might conclude that Chris Bryant is just another male-centred, selfish, unthinking misogynist.

I wish, how I wish, that Badenoch's economic politics were different. On the issue of gender ideology, though, she has the required understanding and mettle. She has to rouse her own lot on the Tory benches, deal with gender woo snakes like Mordaunt and Nokes, and galvanise a whole swathe of institutions.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 09:41

“This is really what all the bullshit about 'assigned' means I suspect. ”

True.

i think though when you cut through the ‘look at me’ fuckwittery we have seen yesterday in this thread, we can see one very clear motivation for the ‘assigned’. Because it shows in stark relief that a male person is fully engaged in their self identified role as some kind of community leader, directly influencing young people while having little comprehension of their needs. Because their needs are different to that person’s needs.

But as long as that community supplies what that person needs to promote their validity as a community leader, those young people will be very poorly served. Their needs are way down the line of priorities.

That is how the harm has been allowed. We are seeing exactly the harm Kemi referred to being proudly owned here in this thread.

Using the term ‘female-assigned’ is inherently harmful because it hides the material reality of the needs of that young person. It allows a male person with a harmful personal agenda to influence the decisions made by that young female person, (to be clear: a girl or a teen or a young woman) because it obfuscates the language that should clearly separate the experiences.

Instead of a male person having such power of influence over a female person, and red flags for safeguarding regarding the information being given, you then have a ‘female -assigned’ young person being advised by a ‘woman identified’ person.

The language should be clear.

Here we have a male adult with a strong personal agenda and a clear history of ignoring female people’s boundaries and disrespecting the female half of the population, advising young female people about their future and their health. While that male person has never yet acknowledged that the cohort of the majority of young trans people registered at gender clinics are very different to that person’s experience.

And that male person persists in using female single sex spaces knowing that this will cause distress in some, probably many, of those using the space. This person is proud of the complete disregard they have for the needs of female people. They post proudly in this vein on a feminist board. It is clear that they have no recognition of female boundaries and ignore them completely.

Red flag territory there. A Safeguarding fail in that the female young people are being given very poor service by whatever support from this specific service is being offered. I actually hope it is not a support service at all being offered and this person is not giving advice. I hope it is just anither embellishment to the personal story. Because the harm this person can cause to even just one vulnerable person is huge.

Young female people, in this case, are being directly used as support humans. To prop up a position and a political agenda for male people involved in that specific group. I see it being replicated in many different groups across the community.

As you say, the use of ‘assigned’ is very deliberate on a community level and, I suspect, by this individual.

This is what Kemi referred to in her answers although her statement centred on the countries recognised for GRCs. She clearly recognises the needs of young people today. She is trying to raise the alarm that their needs are not being met.

RebelliousCow · 09/12/2023 09:48

One of my big concerns is how safe Badenoch's seat will be come the election. She will be very much needed on the opposition benches should Labour win, which increasingly seems inevitable. It would be awful for her to suffer a shock loss.

Datun · 09/12/2023 10:02

I actually hope it is not a support service at all being offered and this person is not giving advice

Personally, I think it's highly unlikely. Anyone who centres themselves to the extent that poster does, is not going to be listened to for more than five seconds.

And anyone dispensing advice, in a community, er, blazing a trail and being a pillar, would certainly not be wasting their time doing nothing but talking irrelevantly about themselves on mumsnet.

”Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.”

LOL

A prime example. so perfect in its demonstration of that which it ostensibly refutes that if it was said in a clinical setting, it would be in a textbook by the following day.

and yes, Kemi really gets it. Not just the high-level concepts. I wonder who she has been listening to, or what she has been reading. Because as everyone knows, nothing turns you like transactivism.

I imagine threats that she has received would have gone a long way to doing the trick. There's nothing like a completely live demonstration of the motivation of those who want to access vulnerable women and girls. Maybe that's why a lot of these men don't get it. They don't get the threats, so they don't see the underbelly.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 10:16

“A prime example. so perfect in its demonstration of that which it ostensibly refutes that if it was said in a clinical setting, it would be in a textbook by the following day.”

It was really a work of art. Operation let them speak delivers the goodies again!

I would like to believe that you are right and it is an, ahhhh, ‘embellishment’ of the reality. However, the huge many small and huge safeguarding fails lately make me doubt that some organisation would not allow this.

Just to repeat it so readers really understand :

A male who completely ignores female boundaries, who falsely compares their male experience to those of female people (detached priority wise using ‘assigned’), who denies the brutality and the harm of female transition to female bodies, and has a history of posting misogynistic posts on a feminist board, is advising vulnerable female young people about transgender issues that will directly impact their decisions.

Nothing to see here. Nothing at all….

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/12/2023 11:11

Regrettably certain trans organisations go to considerable efforts to seek out children in schools confused about their sex and offer "mentoring" to them. No information about their qualifications for getting involved in children's lives like this other than presumably self interest?

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/professionals/mentoring

Mentoring for Students | Gendered Intelligence

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/professionals/mentoring

Froodwithatowel · 09/12/2023 11:20

Mm. Once an organisation exists, then whether by intent or natural mission creep, their raison d'etre becomes needing the client base to exist and expand.

And will this involve an objective supporting approach by any chance where a percentage decide that they are indeed the sex/gender they were born as, or a heavily biased one operating on a belief system that will guide these children towards heavy and permanent consequence decisions that may involve destroying their health and fertility? And 100% of these children are moved on down this path?

How qualified and objective are the people delivering this mentoring? What professional standards are involved and what systems all counsellors and therapists use to ensure that their personal biases don't creep in and that they are not using the client to meet their own needs, however unconsciously?

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 12:11

Yes. Once you see it, it is hard to miss. Which is why some posters resort to hyperbole and emotional manipulation we point out as tactics being used.

The very people who resort to this hyperbole, who proudly declare they are pillars in their community and guiding others, while just as proudly boasting about ignoring female people’s boundaries, claiming direct comparisons with female people, including female transitioners that even the published experts state are not the same as previous cohorts, and certainly not the same as a male with a pubertal health issue, they are never the people who should be in any position of influence over young vulnerable people!

ResisterRex · 09/12/2023 12:19

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/12/2023 11:11

Regrettably certain trans organisations go to considerable efforts to seek out children in schools confused about their sex and offer "mentoring" to them. No information about their qualifications for getting involved in children's lives like this other than presumably self interest?

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/professionals/mentoring

I see they still run their wildly inappropriate age range swimming groups

genderedintelligence.co.uk/trans-youth/youth-group

Peterpieper · 09/12/2023 12:40

That is a nice earner, £100/hour plus expenses. No wonder they want to continue with trans youth groups.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 09/12/2023 14:08

RebelliousCow · 09/12/2023 09:48

One of my big concerns is how safe Badenoch's seat will be come the election. She will be very much needed on the opposition benches should Labour win, which increasingly seems inevitable. It would be awful for her to suffer a shock loss.

Edited

She's in a good position to keep her seat - over 60% of the vote.

Miriam Cates, who asked the very sensible question about why men are self id getting a female passport, looks more at risk. She took a traditional labour seat at the last election.

Floisme · 09/12/2023 14:33

I'm very grateful to Kemi Badenoch for getting to grips with this but the thing is, she won't be Minister for Women and Equalities for much longer. There's a limit to what can be achieved in a House of Commons debate when the government is packed with MPs who are just going to follow the party whip.

I know I keep banging on about this but I can't get over how poor Anneliese Dodds - currently in line to take over KB's post - was in the House of Commons. I went back to look at that Guardian article of hers on self ID and she robotically repeats the same phrases in both the article and the HOC - she even says, 'Let me be clear' on both occasions. That's what you do when you don't understand something - you pick a set of phrases and you keep on repeating them.

What's worse is, I'm struggling to come up with any senior Labour MP who I think might be more competent or diligent.

I think this is getting to me because previously I'd been mainly focussing on Starmer when I thought about Labour but, annoying as he is, he's beginning to look like an intellectual giant compared to the people around him.

duc748 · 09/12/2023 14:40

Changing gender is not a decision anyone makes lightly.

Unless your solicitor advises it. But once you make the law, Annaliese...

RebelliousCow · 09/12/2023 14:40

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 09/12/2023 14:08

She's in a good position to keep her seat - over 60% of the vote.

Miriam Cates, who asked the very sensible question about why men are self id getting a female passport, looks more at risk. She took a traditional labour seat at the last election.

Show quote history

That would be a loss. Let's hope she is a good constituency MP.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 09/12/2023 15:21

What's worse is, I'm struggling to come up with any senior Labour MP who I think might be more competent or diligent.

Thats before we think about the quality of the new intake. Labour could have competent people lined up in those seats, but equally they might not.

Floisme · 09/12/2023 15:27

Agreed, but I think the new intake in any party normally just do what they're told. It's the current shadow cabinet who are likely to be calling the shots.

ButterflyHatched · 09/12/2023 18:18

@Helleofabore careful, you're in danger of straining yourself from that reach!

I can see why you've switched from contesting minutiae to outright character assassination and pantomime levels of 'oh no it isn't' when encountering someone who Badenoch's core argument requires not to exist on multiple levels.

Every time you claim that I lack sufficient context or experience with an ever-shrinking narrow portion of a cohort, I then either provide information to support cases where I do - or freely volunteer that I do not where applicable. I do not lie or exaggerate. I simply provide the truth where it is safe to do so.

You then fall back on saying I'm a narcissist or am invading female spaces for...challenging a harmful mythology that directly contradicts my personal experiences and those of many of my friends, family and colleagues?

Your thesis that it is inappropriate for personal testimony to be provided by the handful of people who have actually directly and personally experienced a treatment pathway and are able to present a nuanced and honest '20 years later' account of outcomes and struggles is utterly bizarre. I'm very much not the only trans person who has walked this road by any means - but everyone else I know with direct experience of this would rather gnaw their own arm off than try and engage with you in earnest.

You are not trans. You were not a trans kid. You do not have direct experience of engaging with the NHS adolescent gender identity development service as a patient. You have no direct experience of this treatment pathway. You are, however, a part of a movement that is shamelessly taking advantage of a lifetime of righteous anger and earnest concern for young people in order to weaponise it to fight a culture war.

It is not your fault that this is happening - but you are a part of the mechanism by which it is happening, and you cannot be blind to the reality of that situation by now.

It is frankly embarrassing to see serious politicians having to engage with yesteryear's ascended fringe conspiracy theories, and even more embarrassing that the mainstream media has been promoting them. I have seen several of these grow out of myths that run rampant in this forum.

I will continue to challenge lies and myths when they are repeated here. You will presumably continue to call me a narcissist who invades women's spaces for doing so.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/12/2023 18:28

As a general point, it's so important that we hear from parents, women who are negatively affected and professionals who have been deskilled by transactivists and their ludicrous insistence that mentally unwell children, gaslit into believing their bodies are wrong, can be fixed with affirmation.
This group are being treated differently to other vulnerable children, subject to significant pressure from self interested political activists in an unethical social experiment.
It's so good to see this being finally spoken about in public and the growing international awareness of how badly these children are being treated given publicity.
Thank you to everyone speaking up for children's safety.

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