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ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 22:46

A good paragraph:

'A lot changed yesterday. An area of politics that is too often dismissed as ‘toxic’, where many fear to tread, was dragged into the sunlight of open debate – something that trans activists have always feared. Gender ideology now stands exposed for what it is – as a threat to the rights of women and of gay people.'

AutumnCrow · 07/12/2023 23:31

Floisme · 07/12/2023 17:13

I cannot believe that a politician who (I assume) has ambitions for a future Cabinet post would agree to either look daft or make herself a scapegoat I find it far more plausible that Dodd's snide, petulant and poorly briefed response was down to laziness and arrogance. But it's not being properly prepared that I find hardest to overlook.

Dodds is currently on Questiontime scribbling down her 'notes' on what other contributors are saying.

And then comes out with the same learned lines and gestures anyway. She has been so media coached. I want to see the substance tbh.

duc748 · 08/12/2023 00:06

I wouldn't hold your breath.

IwantToRetire · 08/12/2023 00:38

A former education secretary under Tony Blair has backed <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/9RrO1/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/12/06/epidemic-gay-children-told-they-are-trans-kemi-badenoch/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Kemi Badenoch on trans rights by saying children should not be encouraged to change gender.
Estelle Morris said pupils should be taught in biology lessons that there are only two sexes.

Speaking in a debate in the House of Lords, she warned that if teachers allowed children to “socially transition”, by referring to them by a different pronoun or name, it could cause them “psychological damage”.

She added that parents should always be informed if a child was struggling with their gender identity.

The comments go much further than the official Labour position, which so far has simply<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/9RrO1/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/14/trans-guidance-urge-schools-help-parents-protect-children/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> called on the Government to publish advice to schools on gender issues.

A group representing lesbian members of the Labour Party backed equalities minister Mrs Badenoch after she warned of an “epidemic” of gay children being told they were transgender.

The Lesbian Labour Group said: “How come a Tory minister can be right and Labour are so wrong?”

From the Telegraph article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/07/badenoch-backs-estelle-morris-trans-gender-schools-children/ which is behind a paywall so see https://archive.ph/9RrO1

Labour peer backs Kemi Badenoch over trans rights in schools

Former education secretary Estelle Morris says allowing children to 'socially transition' could cause them psychological damage

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/07/badenoch-backs-estelle-morris-trans-gender-schools-children

WarriorN · 08/12/2023 08:10

Floisme · 07/12/2023 17:13

I cannot believe that a politician who (I assume) has ambitions for a future Cabinet post would agree to either look daft or make herself a scapegoat I find it far more plausible that Dodd's snide, petulant and poorly briefed response was down to laziness and arrogance. But it's not being properly prepared that I find hardest to overlook.

You are very right; I'm astounded daily by incompetence of people in power (not just in gov) who really should spend some time getting to grips with things but arrogantly refuse to.

Very welcome comments from Estelle. That will be noted by the unions.

nauticant · 08/12/2023 08:25

I've always had respect for Estelle Morris for resigning as Education Secretary because she felt she wasn't up to the job. From her resignation letter in 2002:

In many ways, I feel I have achieved more in the first job than I have in the second. I've learned what I'm good at and also what I'm less good at. I'm good at dealing with the issues and in communicating to the teaching profession. I am less good at strategic management of a huge department and I am not good at dealing with the modern media. All this has meant that with some of the recent situations I have been involved in, I have not felt I have been as effective as I should be, or as effective as you need me to be.

WarriorN · 08/12/2023 08:30

Some labour politicians should take note of the level of self reflection she demonstrates.

fromorbit · 08/12/2023 09:33

Helen Joyce on the speech:

I cannot express my gratitude to Kemi Badenoch strongly enough for standing up for young gay people while the "establishment without a cause" gays like Chris Bryant throw those young people under the bus to virtue signal
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12839437/Kemi-Badenoch-against-epidemic-gay-children-change-gender-HELEN-JOYCE.html

This speech is a watershed. A significant part of the Tories are going to be adopting a new approach which has impact on the other parties as the election nears.

We are passed no debate, restricted debate and heading into total debate.

My relief when Kemi spoke out against gay children gender epidemic

HELEN JOYCE: Kemi Badenoch (pictured) drew attention ideology that led to an 'epidemic' of gay or bisexual youngsters being told they are transgender and given drugs that can lead to sterilisation.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12839437/Kemi-Badenoch-against-epidemic-gay-children-change-gender-HELEN-JOYCE.html

Floisme · 08/12/2023 09:43

That Estelle Morris resignation letter feels like it's from another age. Can you imagine any politician from either side of the House saying that now?

Just supposing Boris Johnson had said, 'I have many talents but, in a global emergency, you need a leader with proven honesty and integrity and that's not me.'
Or Jeremy Corbyn:, 'To be honest I only put my name forward because my mates made me. I haven't got a clue what I'm doing.'

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 10:11

This speech is a watershed. A significant part of the Tories are going to be adopting a new approach which has impact on the other parties as the election nears.

Yes. It isn't going away, is it? It's getting bigger and messier and we're going to end up with a split down the Tories. The ones willing to stand up for equality for women, gay people and child safeguarding, and the ones terrified to talk about it because yes, ok, there may be issues but nice people wouldn't mention them! . Who believe it's better to look the other way and let bad things happen to people on their watch than to have the guts to face them.

It will end up being a party split on those able to deal with reality and responsibility, and those frantically trying to identify as those nasty bits not existing if you don't talk about them.

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 10:14

What they need is to be nurtured, told they are loved and allowed to explore their identity without judgment. Instead, all too many are told they are transgender.

And that anyone disagreeing with them, however gently, is an immediate and intolerable threat to them - to the child in this case calling the police and her father being arrested.

Hence a grown man stating in parliament yesterday that people needed to just not talk about things that made him feel unsafe.

Chersfrozenface · 08/12/2023 10:19

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 10:11

This speech is a watershed. A significant part of the Tories are going to be adopting a new approach which has impact on the other parties as the election nears.

Yes. It isn't going away, is it? It's getting bigger and messier and we're going to end up with a split down the Tories. The ones willing to stand up for equality for women, gay people and child safeguarding, and the ones terrified to talk about it because yes, ok, there may be issues but nice people wouldn't mention them! . Who believe it's better to look the other way and let bad things happen to people on their watch than to have the guts to face them.

It will end up being a party split on those able to deal with reality and responsibility, and those frantically trying to identify as those nasty bits not existing if you don't talk about them.

Well, that goes for the Labour Party is spades.

Except that the second group is a good bit larger and there are far more True Believers.

As for the Lib Dems, the Greens, the SNP and Plaid Cymru, they:re almost entirely the second group or TBs.

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 10:25

I'll gladly consider the manifesto and policies of a new party formed out of the ruins of all the other parties, on the basis of capacity to deal with reality and in search of actual equality for all!

UtopiaPlanitia · 08/12/2023 14:04

IcakethereforeIam · 08/12/2023 13:54

This is a good article imo. I hope the Labour leadership, and Sunak, read it

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/08/kemi-badenoch-is-becoming-keir-starmers-biggest-headache/

https://archive.ph/1Clpe archive link

It’s an excellent article - thanks for posting the link 👍

duc748 · 08/12/2023 14:16

I don't expect anything from Labour other than what we've had so far. Starmer's not going to start growing a pair now. I think they calculate (maybe rightly?) that it isn't a vote-defining issue for most of the electorate.

Yanncie · 08/12/2023 15:14

duc748 · 08/12/2023 14:16

I don't expect anything from Labour other than what we've had so far. Starmer's not going to start growing a pair now. I think they calculate (maybe rightly?) that it isn't a vote-defining issue for most of the electorate.

Labour have seriously dropped the ball on this one, as far as I can see it is the biggest issue the public are interested in right now and with the way things are heading the Conservatives will take the next general election quite easily.

Floisme · 08/12/2023 16:02

duc748 · 08/12/2023 14:16

I don't expect anything from Labour other than what we've had so far. Starmer's not going to start growing a pair now. I think they calculate (maybe rightly?) that it isn't a vote-defining issue for most of the electorate.

Agree but I do think they may have miscalculated how far they need to go in order to distance themselves from self-ID. Annelise Dodds does not strike me as being on top of this at all. I think they can still be pushed further.

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 16:07

The Tories really must be getting desperate if they're trying the 'transing away the gay' respectability ladder-pull nonsense that is going to detonate a sizeable portion of their own party and force the press to spend the next decade trying to pretend they never printed it. One last frantic reactionary extinction burst before the ship slips beneath the waves! I only hope the actual harm it ends up causing is minimal.

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids in their clamour to salvage something from an impending electorial disaster. Conjuring forth the ghost of last decade's struggle for gay and lesbian legal parity might generate a short-term populist boost but it's a losing battle that will last precisely as long as it takes for people to remember that bisexuals exist.

I self-ID'd my passport in 2002 long before the GRA was even a twinkle in the eye - I've never needed a GRC to go to the toilet or access single sex services. I eagerly await the arrival of the Gender Police at Heathrow just to add to the ongoing international humiliation this government has already dragged us through.

Nice play Badenoch, you made Starmer squirm over the terrifying prospect of actually having to cleave to a coherent principle.

Datun · 08/12/2023 16:12

The Tories really must be getting desperate if they're trying the 'transing away the gay' respectability ladder-pull nonsense

How do you mean, butterfly? It was the GID clinic at theTavistock who claimed they were transing away the gay.

Do you also think they were saying it for political capital?

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 16:13

And moving on....

Starmer's not going to start growing a pair now. I think they calculate (maybe rightly?) that it isn't a vote-defining issue for most of the electorate.

The progress here is glacial. But this isn't going away. It's getting bigger, messier, the general public are not tolerant of women losing rights or their kids having safeguarding messed with, and awareness is growing despite the frantic shut up shut up don't talk about it you're all mean approaches. The rights of people to be homosexual are also increasingly being raised.

Labour may get in this time around but I don't think they're going to succeed in making this settle down and disappear. It's going to keep building. Every detransitioner, every woman hurt, every court case, the mess keeps on getting larger, and you cannot make everyone pretend it isn't happening. This is being openly put forward in parliament now, not just here. We can't all be the supposed six insane old bats with socks.

OldCrone · 08/12/2023 16:20

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids

Trans kids? Can you define what you mean by "trans kids"? No? Thought not.

EasternStandard · 08/12/2023 16:24

OldCrone · 08/12/2023 16:20

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids

Trans kids? Can you define what you mean by "trans kids"? No? Thought not.

@ButterflyHatched can you say more about ‘trans kids’

If a child is gender non conforming are they included? Is there an age range which applies?

Chersfrozenface · 08/12/2023 16:32

@ButterflyHatched

Trans kids...

Please give an exact definition of "trans".

Please give an exact age range for "kids".

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