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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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29
GailBlancheViola · 08/12/2023 16:33

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids

Time and opinion will not be kind to those who chose to put homosexual children on an irreversible, experimental medical pathway that has resulted in them being rendered sterile and having perfectly healthy body parts removed and a lifelong reliance on medication. The Lawsuits will be epic as they damn well should be.

All those who actioned the above, pushed it, promoted it and condoned it should face prison sentences.

EasternStandard · 08/12/2023 16:47

GailBlancheViola · 08/12/2023 16:33

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids

Time and opinion will not be kind to those who chose to put homosexual children on an irreversible, experimental medical pathway that has resulted in them being rendered sterile and having perfectly healthy body parts removed and a lifelong reliance on medication. The Lawsuits will be epic as they damn well should be.

All those who actioned the above, pushed it, promoted it and condoned it should face prison sentences.

Yes. A huge safeguarding failure

EasternStandard · 08/12/2023 16:47

Actually more than that. A dystopian failure by adults

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 17:03

GailBlancheViola · 08/12/2023 16:33

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids

Time and opinion will not be kind to those who chose to put homosexual children on an irreversible, experimental medical pathway that has resulted in them being rendered sterile and having perfectly healthy body parts removed and a lifelong reliance on medication. The Lawsuits will be epic as they damn well should be.

All those who actioned the above, pushed it, promoted it and condoned it should face prison sentences.

Sounds like there's a gravy train about to leave town! If only I had no moral scruples or qualms about betraying the earnest good will of the only people in the country who actually gave a damn about us back then.

Ah yes, those terrible doctors who eventually grudgingly gave me exactly what I asked for years after I asked for it (well, a stopgap concession via blockers anyway). AND they made a terrible mistake inflicting this on a bisexual who was most definitely not made any less gay in the process!

This whole 'social transition is mutilating children' house of cards collapses when you actually talk to any of us, but why let that get in the way of a good moral panic?

GailBlancheViola · 08/12/2023 17:11

This whole 'social transition is mutilating children' house of cards collapses when you actually talk to any of us, but why let that get in the way of a good moral panic?

It is not a moral panic, what is being done to children in the name of this ideology is hideous. A lie is being sold, a damaging lie that has far reaching consequences.

Helleofabore · 08/12/2023 18:04

Oh dear. Are we back to the misogynistic 'I'm alright Jack' posts? The ones that are completely tone deaf and completely miss the plight of the current adolescent cohort of transitioners? You know, the female ones? The ones that some male posters can never seem to remember in their posts about themselves?

It is really great that we keep getting these live demonstrations of this. And also the ignoring of the young male transitioners too. It is really quite clear that there is a determination of older male transitioners who are willfully ignoring the current situation for their own political agenda.

But it is great that on this thread we get that demonstration for all the readers who are reading along.

The court cases of the detransitioners have now been described as a 'gravy train' for those without 'moral scruples' and as 'betrayal'. Another hyperbole rich, emotionally manipulative example. Brilliant.

Peterpieper · 08/12/2023 18:31

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 16:07

The Tories really must be getting desperate if they're trying the 'transing away the gay' respectability ladder-pull nonsense that is going to detonate a sizeable portion of their own party and force the press to spend the next decade trying to pretend they never printed it. One last frantic reactionary extinction burst before the ship slips beneath the waves! I only hope the actual harm it ends up causing is minimal.

Time will not be kind to those who once again target trans kids in their clamour to salvage something from an impending electorial disaster. Conjuring forth the ghost of last decade's struggle for gay and lesbian legal parity might generate a short-term populist boost but it's a losing battle that will last precisely as long as it takes for people to remember that bisexuals exist.

I self-ID'd my passport in 2002 long before the GRA was even a twinkle in the eye - I've never needed a GRC to go to the toilet or access single sex services. I eagerly await the arrival of the Gender Police at Heathrow just to add to the ongoing international humiliation this government has already dragged us through.

Nice play Badenoch, you made Starmer squirm over the terrifying prospect of actually having to cleave to a coherent principle.

You’re saying that you’re quite happy to ignore women’s boundaries and turn single sex spaces into mixed sex spaces without permission. Typical male behaviour. And women can tell that you’re male, they’re too frightened to say anything

WickedSerious · 08/12/2023 18:41

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 17:03

Sounds like there's a gravy train about to leave town! If only I had no moral scruples or qualms about betraying the earnest good will of the only people in the country who actually gave a damn about us back then.

Ah yes, those terrible doctors who eventually grudgingly gave me exactly what I asked for years after I asked for it (well, a stopgap concession via blockers anyway). AND they made a terrible mistake inflicting this on a bisexual who was most definitely not made any less gay in the process!

This whole 'social transition is mutilating children' house of cards collapses when you actually talk to any of us, but why let that get in the way of a good moral panic?

Thank god you're here officer,there was way too much common sense in this thread.

OldCrone · 08/12/2023 18:43

This whole 'social transition is mutilating children' house of cards collapses when you actually talk to any of us, but why let that get in the way of a good moral panic?

Transition of children has nothing to do with you. Or are you now claiming that you were given puberty blockers as a child?

And I notice that you didn't answer my earlier question @ButterflyHatched. What do you mean by "trans kids"? A definition would be useful.

Helleofabore · 08/12/2023 20:06

OldCrone · 08/12/2023 18:43

This whole 'social transition is mutilating children' house of cards collapses when you actually talk to any of us, but why let that get in the way of a good moral panic?

Transition of children has nothing to do with you. Or are you now claiming that you were given puberty blockers as a child?

And I notice that you didn't answer my earlier question @ButterflyHatched. What do you mean by "trans kids"? A definition would be useful.

It is eye opening to see just how much some people need to centre themselves as the subject. Despite being nothing like the majority of adolescent cohort under discussion. I am not even sure I have ever yet seen this poster acknowledge the needs of the current cohort at all.

And never the acknowledgement of the harms of early medical transition for children and adolescents.

And never the acknowledgment that even the fucking experts across multiple countries have acknowledged harms and the difference in current transitioners. It is truly remarkable behaviour that seems to be repeated, over and over. That behaviour of making it all about them. A male person on a feminist board. One who by now knows that female people in general, and the majority, do not want male people at all in their single sex space over about 8 years old.

The complete denial of respect for female people is very clear in almost every single post. Yet, the posts appear on a feminist board claiming victimhood.

Narcissists have that habit.

fromorbit · 08/12/2023 20:11

duc748 · 08/12/2023 14:16

I don't expect anything from Labour other than what we've had so far. Starmer's not going to start growing a pair now. I think they calculate (maybe rightly?) that it isn't a vote-defining issue for most of the electorate.

Starmer REALLY REALLY wants to win

There is a long list of people from Corbyn down who thought Starmer wouldn't turn on them if it looked the best option.

Remember Starmer was the ONLY candidate that never signed the trans pledge in the leadership contest. He promised a whole bunch of other pledges which he has backtracked on. So trans issues is the thing he is definitely going to stick with. I don't think that is the case.

He really really doesn't care about this. As soon as he thinks that there is more to be gained from flipping and the majority of the party and public would back him he will swap sides. The issue is not Starmer, but a bunch of other senior Labour people who feel very strongly about trans ideas so he is going for this compromise position which isn't going to work long term. I agree the other point is most of the electorate doesn't care that much right now.

So we keep raising the profile.

We can also rely on other parties like the SNP to attack Labour as being anti-Trans which actually will push Starmer in a saner direction.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/12/2023 20:11

Peterpieper · 08/12/2023 18:31

You’re saying that you’re quite happy to ignore women’s boundaries and turn single sex spaces into mixed sex spaces without permission. Typical male behaviour. And women can tell that you’re male, they’re too frightened to say anything

Edited

Exactly this! Man stomps all over women’s spaces without a thought for how women feel about it or any understanding of how women fear men & learn very early on that you don’t make men angry just in case they hurt you

RebelliousCow · 08/12/2023 20:14

It both alarms and depresses me to see the speakers on the Labour benches. This is the reality; that which hides beneath the brittle, polished veneer of Starmer. It is clear they would all be pushing for a quick passage of whatever bill relating to LGBTQ+ rights, without the slightest hint of real scrutiny, knowledge or awareness of the deeper and more fundamental issues.

Seeing Angela Eagle so confused on one the most straightforward issues speaks volumes. I'm not sure that Kemi dealt with that confusion well tbh. I was hoping she would re-affirm that single sex, going forward, would mean biological sex, and perhaps introduce the idea of creating third spaces and facilities - which is the most obvious solution to Eagle's confusion, and which is a solution that nobody could really argue against with any credibility.

Floisme · 08/12/2023 20:23

Yes the more I see of Starmer's senior team, the more alarmed I feel, not just about where their sympathies might lie, but about the sheer level of understanding and competence.

Anneliese Dodds really rattled me the other day. She should be on top of this and yet all I saw her do was parrot phrases from that Guardian article she put her name to. I get no sense that she understands.

Froodwithatowel · 08/12/2023 20:26

This is the reality; that which hides beneath the brittle, polished veneer of Starmer. It is clear they would all be pushing for a quick passage of whatever bill relating to LGBTQ+ rights, without the slightest hint of real scrutiny, knowledge or awareness of the deeper and more fundamental issues.

This. ^^

This is a group who believe that although harms are happening and the issues are grim and children are among the most harmed, if they don't look and don't talk about it and pretend it's not happening and just ram it through quick, somehow things will.... well, I suppose come back to bite someone else and not them, because you'd have to be mad at this point to believe this is going to end well.

But what can you expect of anyone willing to state that a man is a woman if he says so, and that the emperor's clothes are gorgeous? Who believes that if they don't look and keep their fingers in their ears and insist they can't see unwanted facts that nothing bad is happening?

You cannot have people in any responsible position who lack the capacity to cope with reality. You absolutely bloody can't have them running a country.

"Prime minister people are starving in the streets and-"

"No, that's not happening, telling me that is a hate crime, you're making me feel unsafe, you're bigoted, you're diet-shaming, and no you can't use that data because it's now a threat to data protection so no one's allowed to see it. Especially not the press and the voters. It's another beautiful happy wonderful day for everyone and we're brilliantly well fed!"

Datun · 08/12/2023 20:51

Ah yes, those terrible doctors who eventually grudgingly gave me exactly what I asked for years after I asked for it

a) you're not a child (well, not chronologically.)

b) newsflash, doctors don't need to give in to your demands.

ButterflyHatched · 08/12/2023 23:43

Datun · 08/12/2023 20:51

Ah yes, those terrible doctors who eventually grudgingly gave me exactly what I asked for years after I asked for it

a) you're not a child (well, not chronologically.)

b) newsflash, doctors don't need to give in to your demands.

I'm not now, no. I was, however, one of the tiny number of GIDS referrals two and a half decades ago who was issued endocrine intervention, and I had already socially transitioned years prior to it.

AR gene mutation resulted in extremely sluggish delayed puberty; I struggled to pass as a boy even prior to social transition. Very similar presentation to cohort under complete suppression. I'm kicking myself now for not volunteering for longer term studies at the time - was so wary of infosec concerns and the possibility of inadvertent breaches that I disappeared from the radar as soon as it was practically possible.

Every time someone on the internet speaks the "this is a new experimental treatment; there is no evidence of long term outcomes and it is all just driven by a desire to trans away the gay" incantation they summon me from the shadows, however.

Helleofabore seems to get desperately annoyed whenever I have the audacity to continue to exist as a happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points, hence the constant admonishment. Apparently I have no idea of the situation facing today's female-assigned adolescent cohort which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids (of all extremes between male and female) who have found their lives are now a political battleground.

Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.

nauticant · 08/12/2023 23:58

The annoyance is that you've set yourself up as the Pied Piper to lead confused children into the gender clinic.

OldCrone · 09/12/2023 00:02

Apparently I have no idea of the situation facing today's female-assigned adolescent cohort

No, you don't.

As a male you have far less idea about the issues faced by teenage girls than the women on here who have all been teenage girls themselves. And some also now have teenage daughters. None of us are "assigned" anything, though.

Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.

Your own experience is relevant to you. It's not relevant to anyone else. And just to emphasise my previous point, your experience as a male is completely irrelevant when we are discussing the experience of women and girls. And also, if your experience is rare, it's even less relevant to anyone else, so telling us all the details just looks like "look at me, I'm special". To us, you're really not very interesting.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/12/2023 00:03

It was a real pleasure amidst the carnage of women's rights & child safeguarding to hear so many sensible comments for once in parliament. And yes, terrifying how inane so many labour MPs sounded. Completely unbothered about what's happening to children - especially girls.

Agreed @Froodwithatowel - MPs looking away despite the international evidence stacking up about the harms being done to children, the reversals happening in the NHS and a public furious that politicians have completely failed to rein in this assault by transactivists on children and schools.

Starmer will be noticing and despite his previous inane comments, I reckon he's cynical enough to dump the transactivist groups. They're not exactly covering themselves with glory when they speak up are they?

OneMorePlant · 09/12/2023 00:29

Floisme · 08/12/2023 20:23

Yes the more I see of Starmer's senior team, the more alarmed I feel, not just about where their sympathies might lie, but about the sheer level of understanding and competence.

Anneliese Dodds really rattled me the other day. She should be on top of this and yet all I saw her do was parrot phrases from that Guardian article she put her name to. I get no sense that she understands.

This is why the trans issue is so important. It's a litmus test. If politicians can't even understand what is going on here or what to do how on earth are they going to solve even more complex issues like housing shortages, costs of living etc

This is the type of thing that should make everyone a single issue voter. Because if this is too hard or complicated for them, they will make everything more of a mess.

The trans issue despite what many claim is not complex or complicated relatively speaking to the tasks or governing a country. We know biological reality. We know what safe guarding is. We know we can't make policies based on the whims of a tiny minority that is mostly confused children and young adults.

If they do not understand this issue they are too incompetent to have a role in government.

OldCrone · 09/12/2023 00:38

We know we can't make policies based on the whims of a tiny minority that is mostly confused children and young adults.

And middle-aged men. The TRAs that they're all terrified of are these older males, not the confused kids.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 01:40

Priceless!

”Helleofabore seems to get desperately annoyed whenever I have the audacity to continue to exist as a happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points, hence the constant admonishment. Apparently I have no idea of the situation facing today's female-assigned adolescent cohort which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids (of all extremes between male and female) who have found their lives are now a political battleground.”

Again with the hyperbole. Ooohhh. The drama!

Nah mate. I am not ‘desperately annoyed’.

I am here, laughingly sometimes, I grant you, pointing out the very clear holes in your posts and the tactics you have used in the past and now. Including pointing out your misogyny. Which, of course, you cannot see.

No, your experience is nothing like the female adolescent experience of transition.

More misogyny right there in your claiming that your experience is anything like theirs. Your centring your own experience as being typical of theirs is so very harmful.

Along with a huge extra dollop of whatever anyone wants to point out is in these words. “which is quite a revelation to me considering my position as a local trailblazer and supporting pillar of the local trans community with an all-too-painful front-row seat to the real-world impact on real kids”. Vanity? Narcissism? Supreme need to tell us again how very important you are?

However, anyone who knows any child or adolescent who has declared a trans identity in the past years, knows that your experience, which many of us remember, is very much not representative of a female experience. At all. In any way.

I doubt it is also representative of a current adolescent male experience either. The vast majority don’t have the issues around puberty you have stated you have therefore, again, your centring yourself as being representative of their experience is harmful too. But not as harmful because at least you are male and you will have enough similarities to lessen the harm. It is still harmful however.

Yet, you have put yourself in this position of influence of these young people and you give them advice. And you claim to know what is best for them, by centring your own experience. But it is a repetitive cycle, isn’t it?

Anyone reading your posts over time can see you seem to have no care for others. Because, you have to insert your experience and centre yourself wherever you are. You make threads about you and claim victimhood to do so. Every time. But you simply cannot see it.

And that is fine. It is a free public forum where anyone can post. However, wherever you post, so will we. And we will note for readers your tactics and the flaws in your logic, and your misogyny. You are, after all, on a feminist board. Posting crap like how you are a “happy and successful adult woman with a lifetime's worth of refutations for the usual talking points”.

Our posts, because I am not alone in pointing out these tactics, flaws in logic, or misogyny, simply continue to point out that you have no experience as a happy successful ‘adult woman’. You do have the experience of a male person’s version of what they envision is womanhood based on their outsider’s view of womanhood. No one denies that.

But oh… the hyperbole! Apparently I deny your very existence! Again. No. I have never denied you exist. You are a male, who had issues with puberty, who has no female lived experience at all, but likes to portray yourself as having by describing yourself as ‘a woman’. A misapplied term because you are a male living your concept of what that term means, while never being able to live it in material reality.

”Please, by all means, do continue to accuse me of narcissism for relating rare and relevant personal experience however.”

This is a gift that keeps on giving! Your posts seem to try to refute what is so crystal clear to anyone who reads them. I think this sentence is a gem though! It should be framed.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 01:46

Floisme · 08/12/2023 20:23

Yes the more I see of Starmer's senior team, the more alarmed I feel, not just about where their sympathies might lie, but about the sheer level of understanding and competence.

Anneliese Dodds really rattled me the other day. She should be on top of this and yet all I saw her do was parrot phrases from that Guardian article she put her name to. I get no sense that she understands.

Annalise Dodds really rattled me too for the same reasons floisme. I get that she probably had a time constraint on delivering her words. However, considering she had Kemi’s statement prior to create her own statement rebutting, it was poorly delivered and lacked substance. Yet, she very well could be the minister for women in a labour government. That is concerning.

Helleofabore · 09/12/2023 01:52

This is a group who believe that although harms are happening and the issues are grim and children are among the most harmed, if they don't look and don't talk about it and pretend it's not happening and just ram it through quick, somehow things will.... well, I suppose come back to bite someone else and not them

Yes Frood, this.

surely if legislation is strong, it will hold because it is based on material reality and will withstand robust analysis and discussion.

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