Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

I followed the link to the BBC article just upthread, at least they're finally reporting the hamas atrocities (although it seemed a bit mealy mouthed), and noticed a link to this article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67617920

Apologies, it's a bit of a derail. This type of behaviour from the settlers that seems to be indulged and even encouraged by factions in Israel that makes all the allegations of 'apartheid' and similar hard to dismiss. The settlers seem to have been emboldened by 7th October and, according to the article, given ranks, weapons and new enthusiasm. But they, and their supporters, aren't the entirety of Israel. As hamas and its supporters aren't the entirety of Palestine. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this point. Perhaps it's the extremes of both countries that are gaining an unwarranted amount of attention, disproportionate to their likely numbers. Unfortunately, the extremes are violent, have guns and are willing to use them. I believe the settlers, like hamas, have, in the past, been willing to turn their weapons on their fellow countrymen. Unlike hamas, they've committed crimes but nothing like 7th October. There's little chance of peace and healing until something is done about the extremes.

Although I'm glad the BBC is reporting on the settler violence, I hope they don't think this is an equivalence to the hamas atrocity.

Unfortunately I can believe he said that because the man is a total fuckwit

I can't believe Owen Jones said that, can't he see what is evidence of? And he's supposed to be a journalist? I'm pretty left wing and I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't condemn Hamas actrocities.

Jones is an odious little arse, he's picked his side and can see no wrong. I'm completely against the settler programme in Israel, but bugger me, if people can't see that what Hamas did was depraved and massively brutal, I don't know what to say to them.

Agree with everything you have just written

I feel similar to you.

I think those only talking about Palestinians, with their simplistic mindset of Israel bad, Palestine good, and flowing from that their need to deny, minimize or justify ( or worse, celebrate) the barbarity of October 7th, has not only opened my eyes to anti-semitism, and just how disturbingly far ordinary people can take tribalism - I really see now how horrors like the holocaust happen -but also forced me to spend all my time trying to bear witness to what happened to Israel.

I would prefer to hold focus on the suffering on all sides, but when one side’s suffering is being lied about and forgotten to suit a simplistic narrative of ‘Israel always bad’ then that becomes less possible.

@AdamRyan thing is though that statement is factually correct and explains why surrounding Arab countries are more than reluctant to get involved or help.

Lazy tropes about Jews controlling the media etc is not the same thing. For example Jews in Russia... they have been on the receiving end of pogroms, discriminating policies and economic hardships. Not bandied together to overthrow the leader or start a civil war. Jews seem more likely to integrate than decimate.

@SinnerBoy that's pretty much my take on it too.

I would prefer to hold focus on the suffering on all sides, but when one side’s suffering is being lied about and forgotten to suit a simplistic narrative of ‘Israel always bad’ then that becomes less possible.

Yep

My DH believes this stuff about the rapes and murder on Oct 7th being propaganda and that it either did not happen or that Hamas did not do it (he believed the lie that Israeli helicopters strafed the Nova festival too, until I pointed out it was disproven). Also cites babies on bayonets in Belgium in WW1. When I point out that the rapes in Belgium were real he has nothing to say except 'exaggerated' and that rape has always been a weapon of war (which I know, anyway). Does not support Hamas btw, just thinks Israel is at fault - and I admit, Israel's behaviour on the West Bank is completely out of order, but that does not excuse Hamas, or their friends.

I feel the same about the settler programme and Hamas brutality, I cannot understand why people can't see it

@AdamRyan

Historically both the Arabs who live there and the Jews feel like this is their land and have legitimate reasons to do so.

If the Palestinians are stateless, then surely it follows that they are entirely at the mercy of Israel who control the borders and the surrounding countryside, and believe they ultimately own the territories?

Israel doesn't claim the Palestinian territories. There is controversy over certain things, but they aren't claiming to "own" all the Palestinian land.

They recognise self-rule at least. The more conservative position may be against a full Palestinian "state" for security reasons. They don't think the Palestinians can be trusted, but that isn't the same thing as claiming the Palestinian territory is all really a part of Israel.

In the case of Hamas, their lunatic supremacist ideology isn't just to destroy Israel, but in theory they would also claim the right to invade Spain and other territories.

I'd find it hard if my OH thought this. Why can't people see that both sides can be in the wrong at the same time? And innocent people on both sides are suffering.

biscuit32 · Today 11:38

I feel the same about the settler programme and Hamas brutality, I cannot understand why people can't see it

It seems to be the modern way to be tribal, pick a position and defend it in defiance of all evidence. He's picked his side and is now too scared to go, "Hang on a minute..." He must know the facts of what happened, he's not unintelligent, but he's bloody stupid.

PorcelinaV · Today 11:40

Israel doesn't claim the Palestinian territories. There is controversy over certain things, but they aren't claiming to "own" all the Palestinian land.

Not yet, they usually deny it, but what else are 3 quarters of a million settlers doing in the West Bank? The illegal settlement programme has increased hugely over the last decade. Israel can say they want a 2 state solution all they want, but their actions show otherwise.

Netanyahu has stated that Gaza will be smaller, when they've finished. They've deliberately destroyed 60% of the housing stock in Gaza.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties

"Physical destruction in Gaza has been massive: 60% of the territory’s total housing stock (234,000 homes) is damaged, 46,000 of which are completely destroyed. The seven-day pause may have provided limited relief from the comprehensive siege but there are still serious shortages of food, clean water and medical supplies."

The only reason I can think of is that they want to make it impossible for the Gazan Palestinians to actually live there, so that they can then annex it.

Everything is tribal, politics is so polarised, that's how we ended up with some of the governments we have now, just look at the Netherlands at the moment and the rise of the far right across Europe. Everything has gone to the fringes, there is nothing in the middle any more. Even in the UK, the Conservatives have shifted so far that I struggle to recognise them and they are very different from the time of John Major etc. I have always considered myself left wing/centre left - backing investment in public services, renationalisation of the railways etc, fighting discrimination on any grounds, not anti-immigration, but now the left doesn't reflect me either.

I blame social media and its algorithms, people get more extreme content on both sides, and the news/media has shifted from explaining situations and all their nuances to clickbait headlines designed to drive ad revenue.

left/right distinctions in the UK have actually become much more porous and flexible, and the two main parties have largely come to meet in the middle. What differences there still are between Labour and Conservative policies don't seem to me to be informed by as-was left/right ideas.

Anyway. To refocus on the thread:

https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1731647226198507701

Reem Alsalem responds to a Haaretz article that was quoted upthread. Claims she has been smeared.

I am sorry, I can’t find a link at the moment, but on BBC news this morning there was an American spokesperson talking about the links between Russia, Iran and Hamas; and how Hamas has been watching and learning from the Russian war against Ukraine, and may also have copied Bucha [ massacres, sadism, rape].

and that rape has always been a weapon of war

I hate it when people say this. They always seem to be using it in a minimising, dismissing context, like ‘ yeah, so women were raped, so what? That always happens in war’.

Loads of things used to be common across the world, slavery for one. Just accepted as a reality, it was. But we didn’t just shrug our shoulders and say ‘ slaverys always existed, what can you do? ’. We eventually realised it was wrong and got rid of it. So why can’t we do the same with raping women in conflict zones? Why can’t we come right out and say, ‘that’s always wrong and must always be condemned and pushed back against and prosecuted’.

“That didn’t happen.
And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is, that’s not my fault.
And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.”

What I've seen in responses to the filmed, broadcast footage of Israeli women being abducted, tortured, maimed, raped and murdered.

'It's made up lies'
'There's no evidence'
'There's no filmed evidence'
'Rape happens in war' - seems to be the stage we're at now.

And there has also, not so often thankfully, but I've seen it, been 'they deserved it'.

It should never be minimised, it feels like it is minimised because it's happening to women.

Rape happens in war' - seems to be the stage we're at now

Yes, I’ve noticed this too.

ArthurbellaScott · Today 12:41

And there has also, not so often thankfully, but I've seen it, been 'they deserved it'.

I really, really don't see how any human being, male, female or Sparkly Unicorn Gender, can possibly write those words and think that it's fair comment, or even slightly reasonable.

I can understand people being sceptical of the footage, (I'm not) what with deepfake and Photoshop etc, but to actually say that they deserved it is plumbing the depths of depravity.

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/fringe-left-groups-express-support-hamass-invasion-and-brutal-attacks-israel

I am paraphrasing. But there are, perhaps inevitably, some groups that have supported Hamas' actions:

''The actions of the resistance over the course of the last day is [sic] a morally and legally legitimate response to occupation.” '

And I had in mind this one Canadian student:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-who-sahar-shehadeh-durham-college-student-sparks-outrage-gives-shoutout-hamas-historic-october-7-attacks

'“I support Hamas. History was made that day. Very proud of my people. Very very proud. [I] would love it if they do it again.”'

I did not mean to dismiss it, but that women bear the brunt of war in this way, being seen as possessions whose violation demoralises the other side. This is still the case. It is and always has been a war crime because it has been used as a weapon.

If you watch the testaments of people from Vietnam, ‘Winter Soldier’, apparently it was SOP ( standard operating procedure to rape) and some of them were evidently also adding extra savagery sadism and brutality to their crimes. Some people involved seem to come to and realise the evil and wrong of what they’ve done and seen and some killed themselves.

Othering and no command control makes it worse.
‘Winter Soldier’
WARNING descriptions from veterans from Vietnam that are very upsetting.

Hamas seem to have not only been sadistic but called upon by leaders to do this sort of evil.