Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

That’s disgusting, @noblegiraffe and @Trulywonderful

I wasn’t initially biased towards Israel- I knew the whole area was problematic and complicated, and felt for all sides, but kept myself back a little as it was effectively none of my business. I had friends with strong opinions, but knew an informed opinion was beyond me.

Reading MN these last 6 weeks, reading multiple posts defending the October attack, minimising the brutality and denying Hamas were more than a handful of terrorists unsupported by their powerless Palestinian civilians- while video was circulating released by the attackers with triumphalism not shame- that shifted me. Watching people march for Palestine without a word of protest against the attack.

Egypt should do that...open the gates. Why on earth would a country that has just had so many people brutally murdered open its gates to its enemy? You cannot be serious! The land immediately around Gaza is where the kibbutz were/are in which people were slaughtered in their homes.

All military operations begin from the air. No army is going to send in its troops without trying to secure an area first. That would also be madness. Their troops would just be sitting targets. Which other army would you expect to do this?

250,000 Israelis have also been diplscaed due to the rocket launches that come over in their hundreds everyday from Hamas and Hezbollah. At least Israel builds shelters and safe rooms in homes for its citizens, unlike Hamas. Golda Meir said that when " they love their children more than they hate us there can be peace". that is not to say that Palestininans don't love their children, but that making hatred of Israel and jihad towards Jews a central plank of their identity there can never be peace or prosperity for their children.

The only solution is for a cease to calls for the elimination of Israel. Its existence cannot be continually denied. It was the PLO that rejected a two state solution of multiples of occasions. Israel with drew from Gaza in 2005, forcefully removing its own people. What has Hamas been doing since?

Israel is a successful, modern economy with a full range of civil rights for its citizens, and its also provides work for many Palestinians. It provides a home not just for Jewish people, who have been persecuted and expelled and subject to literal genocide for centuries, but for other communities too; but the whole point of it is to have a Jewish focus. it is a tiny Jewish state in a vast arab muslim region. Islamic fundamentalists are never going to accept living in a state with a Jewish focus.

If the Palestinians hadn't been so troublesome and anarchic they wouldn't have been expelled from Kuwait ( 400,000 in 1991) where they supported Saddam Hussain's invasion; or from Lebanon, where they instigated a civil war; or from Jordan where they attempted to asssasinnate the King and waged a war of terror.

I also suspect this, and there is research from the UK which shows that a common link between those who have committed terrorist acts, is that they have a history of domestic violence.

Hamas was elected by a big majority. It still has more support than Fatah who are seen as sell outs because they are open to co-operation. Unfortunately, the Palestinian identity has been formed around a sense of grievance and victimhood and it is going to take a lot of shifting. There wasn't even a 'Palestinian' identity until the 1960's - there was a 'pan arab' identity.

Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories, not Israel; though 1.5 million arab muslims do live in Israel and have citizenship. The territories were set aside for the purpose of creating a two state solution - but it has been rejected by the arabs on multiple occasions.

It maintains tight control over its borders because of the terrorist threat from Hamas and other militants; and also because Israel, like Egypt, does not want to open the sea front to Iranian influence. Iran is pulling the strings here, in its proxy war with Saudi Arabia - for control and dominance in the Muslim Middle East. It was Saudi movements and overtures towards acceptance and normalisation of relations with Israeli that prompted the October 7th attacks.

Yes, Rebellious. It is crucial to see the situation in context - the countries bordering Palestine and Israel - look at the support from various factions coming from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the response from Egypt and the history of the Muslim Brotherhood etc.

I still wouldn't be biased if I were you towards one side. I think you probably used the wrong word there by mistake perhaps. Just be balanced and recognise the situation is complicated and don't disregard human suffering from either side. Plus call out the hate getting spread or the promotion of false narratives.

I agree with the sentiment though pickled, I wasn’t aware before this of just how deeply antisemitism runs

I'm appalled at the depth of antisemitism on display particularly from the young and the left. I really don't know how British Jews are coping with it. It also makes the Israeli position more understandable, they have few other options.

Actually @Trulywonderful , it’s been Jewish posters reining me in when I’ve been struggling for balance.

And I am acquiring bias where there was none before as a result of the whataboutery and ‘ah but’, and ‘context’ from the clearly pro Palestinian commenters whose bias is so extraordinarily obvious it’s alienating people like me.

I haven’t been jumping on the Palestine focused threads to say ‘ah, but see what they did!’!
I’m not refusing to see the tragedy of the destruction of Gaza, and the desperation of those residents who just want to live in peace.

The propaganda and callousness of those who can only speak up for one side in this situation is moving me towards bias as a necessary balance, frankly.

It sounds to me as though 'acquiring bias' just means you are seeing the other side of what has often largely been presented as a one sided 'Israel is evil' narrative, pickled.

I agree with pp that there is no need to have bias one way or the other - it can be hard to maintain equanimity faced with such horrific events, but it is possible and it's, imo, the only way to stay sane and human.

It's natural when faced with horror to respond with aversion or anger. The key is noticing that response and avoiding a knee jerk response. There are horrible stories from Gaza, too, and heartbreak everywhere.

The attacks on October the 7th have shifted my perception, The men who carried out such barbarism are utterly beyond my understanding.

See I differ there, Arabella. I know a significant portion of men are animals held in check by civilisation. Barbarous when released to terrorise at will.

It’s the civilian response I struggle with. Some disbelief may be understandable. The celebration of it is past understanding for me.

And the deliberate orchestration and organisation. Not a marauding band of raiders having fun on the way- the deliberate purpose of it.

I am a Jewish poster and I do totally get what you mean. That is why I commented on your choice of word. I am not judging you for it or anything. Trust me I understand why people feel the way they do.

Yes. I’m becoming biased. Hopefully my rage will subside when I step away from MN and I’ll be reasonable again.

It doesn’t help that I can’t keep the two threads I’m on separate in my head, and carry my indignation from one to the other. Time I stepped back. And I know that’s a privilege other people don’t have.

That's understandable, but the consequence is that Israel can't just say "not our problem" when it comes to dealing with the situation inside Gaza. If they want to keep tight control of the borders, then they have to accept responsibility for moving people and resources across those borders as needed

It is totally understandable that people not used to dealing with the horror that is Hamas and their fan club feel the way you do

This is all a baptism by fire experience for a lot of people. The Jewish posters here a and a few others just have years of seeing the terrorists attacks and dealing with the after effects.

Even we have to step away from social media or news articles and clear our heads from time to time. You are not alone in thinking about the conflict or threads on here even when not online. Plenty of people do that too.

I've been reading and watching documentaries. I now know considerably more of the details and nuances about the history. One doc. contained interviews with actual players (the BBC one). A young Hamas recruiter described how he'd managed one of the worst suicide bombings during the Intafada. He said to camera with a huge grin 'I never dreamt we would kill so many.'

It's hard to get inside the mindset of martyrdom.

I found this very illuminating
https://fathomjournal.org/soviet-anti-zionism-and-contemporary-left-antisemitism/?s=09&utm

For many decades, virulently antisemitic forms of ‘anti-Zionism’ were central to the cold war propaganda of the Communist states. In this powerful essay Izabella Tabarovsky not only lays bare the entire shameful story of Soviet Judeophobia but shows us that, to quote William Faulkner, ‘the past is not dead, it is not even past’. ‘

I haven’t heard anyone do this on this thread.

Help me understand this then.

I think the situation is 2 million people live in Gaza. It's not a country in its own right. Borders are controlled by Israel but the business of running Gaza is controlled by Hamas who are effectively a terrorist dictatorship.

Historically both the Arabs who live there and the Jews feel like this is their land and have legitimate reasons to do so.

If the Palestinians are stateless, then surely it follows that they are entirely at the mercy of Israel who control the borders and the surrounding countryside, and believe they ultimately own the territories?

If this is all correct then I can't see how the Israeli government can wash their hands of the situation and claim its not their responsibility.

In the same way people can perceive "antisemitism" where other posters don't, I can perceive callousness towards human lives where others don't. It is OK to have different perceptions of things.

I'm coming at this quite cold but I actually would say the opposite to the poster above. When I read statements like "If the Palestinians hadn't been so troublesome and anarchic they wouldn't have been expelled from Kuwait ( 400,000 in 1991) where they supported Saddam Hussain's invasion; or from Lebanon, where they instigated a civil war; or from Jordan where they attempted to asssasinnate the King and waged a war of terror" it makes me think of what people historically said about Jews. I hate the implication that Gazans somehow deserve whats happening to them because they were born in Palestine. I hate labelling whole populations of humans as "all this bad thing" and it's happening a lot on this thread.

Lolapusht · Yesterday 22:21

Let Egypt take them in.

Why should they? Where will they live? Who will feed them? Who will provide water and sewage facilities?

Why should Egypt assist Israel in ethnic cleansing?

I can't believe Owen Jones said that, can't he see what is evidence of? And he's supposed to be a journalist? I'm pretty left wing and I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't condemn Hamas actrocities. They are monsters. Such senseless brutality. Condemning them and being horrified does not take away from being horrified about what is happening in Gaza. I'm horrified about what happened on 7 October and what is happening now.

Owen Jones (and on the opposite side, the right wing media etc) is a product of everything being so polarised in general in politics, nuance is dead. It's possible to see horror wherever it dwells and call it out for what it is, with no excuses. He shouldn't be denying it due to his own politics, to fit a narrative. It's possible to be horrified about Hamas at the same time as being horrified at the humantarian situation in Gaza.