Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

NB the point of this testament was to try to stop people (Americans) from hiding and minimising these crimes.

Thanks, Scrolling. I'll take your word for it and swerve watching, though. One atrocity situation/war is more than I can handle at one time.

I suppose there is a subtle difference in noting that rape is often used as a weapon, or as described upthread as a 'genocidal tool', iirc, and dismissing it as 'just something that happens' or inevitable.

I also note that the Iran administration supports Hamas, and has an appalling record on women's rights.

ArthurbellaScott · Today 13:42

I am paraphrasing. But there are, perhaps inevitably, some groups that have supported Hamas' actions:

I've seen a couple of online reports about people posting that they were Israelis and deserved it.

I know nothing about it but find it hard to believe its "factually correct" to describe a population as "troublesome and anarchic"

It is never as simplistic as "one side did this" and even a cursory Google suggests a complex picture of persecution and shifting alliances between middle Eastern countries.

And I'm not comparing to "lazy tropes about Jews controlling the media". I'm comparing to Nazi Germany claiming Jews had caused their defeat in WW1 and therefore should leave German territory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus_from_Kuwait_(1990%E2%80%9391)#:~:text=March%201991%20exodus,-Kuwait's%20campaign%20against&text=On%20March%2014%2C%201991%2C%20200%2C000,Kuwait's%20liberation%20from%20Iraqi%20occupation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2015/8/6/palestine-kuwait-relations-ice-has-started-to-melt

https://www.meforum.org/3391/kuwait-expels-palestinians (this one refers to what happened to the Palestinians as "ethnic cleansing").

I don't blame the surrounding countries for not wanting to get involved.

That is what Israel did before October the 7th - but you don't supply your enemy in war time conditions. Hamas divert resources destined for the people to themselves; in fact some have got very rich off humanitarian and other aid; as well as using scarce electricity supplies to run and ventillate the hundreds of miles of tunnels that they use to smuggle in weapons and other illegal substances

To prevent this Egypt at one point poured human effluent into the tunnels, followed by sea water. When an organisation such as Hamas takes control they operate as a a criminal mafia - oppressing their own people as well. Before Hamas were elected in 2005 there even used to be shared factories and farms, and many Gazans had work permits to work in Israel, earning far more than they could in Gaza. Not now, though.

Of course two state solutions have been consistently rejected by Palestinian leaders since the 1960's and going back even further. Israel wasn't even occupying the West Bank and Gaza in the early 1960s yet the PLO was still calling itself itself a 'liberation movement'.

I think the situation was badly handled by the British when they vacated the region and created the mandate ( after the fall of the Ottoman Empire which had controlled the whole region for hundreds of years). What is now the West Bank was effectively Jordanian territory and Jordan could have absorbed the arab population into its own ( in fact 3 million did become Jordanian citizens), and so could have Lebanon ( Lebanon refused citizenship, though - creating refugee camps instead).

The problem was that those who rejected the two state solution pathway were radicalised and anarchic and nobody wanted them. Originally, the movement was a Baaathist one seeking a wider pan-arab identity across the region - not a narrowly ethnic 'Palestinian' one.But the baaathist dream never manifested - and by that time the Palestinian leaders had been agitating and causing trouble everywhere they went and were not welcome.

Generations of 'Palestinians' had been living quite successsfully in Kuwait - but were then expelled because the leaders supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of that country. 400,000 became refugees because of that.

Israel has some responsibility, of course, but not all of the responsibility. And no country at war owes its enemy anything. Of course some Israelis have become radicalised too - such as the agressive West Bank Settlers - but if a genuine truce and acceptance of Israel's existence could be established, then they could be dealt with by Israel. Israel forcefully removed its own people from Gaza in 2005.

Right, I really am leaving the thread now because it makes no sense to me and is starting to feel gaslighty. Ironically after a period of deliberately not engaging because its too polarised, I started to engage more so i could understand a more balance, pro-Israel point of view to put to my kids. But to summarise what I've learnt from this thread:

• Palestinians are stateless and living on a patch of land in Israel that's ruled be no-one
• This is their own fault because they are anarchic trouble makers, otherwise they could just live with other Arabs
• Borders are controlled by Israel but its not Israels problem that the Gazans are dying because they are fighting a war with Hamas and can't arm the enemy
• Hamas are not the same as Palestinians so fighting Hamas doesn't equate to targeting Palestinians
• but lots of Palestinians support Hamas and so effectively you can't fight Hamas without targeting Palestinians
• The Israelis are telling people to flee so they are protecting them, however they can't open the borders to their enemies so it's not their problem that people can't flee

About the only line I can actually live with is "Hamas brutally tortured and murdered Jews in a terrorist attack so its not surprising Israel retaliated, its similar to the US after 9/11". Which is pretty much where I was before.

It is a horrible mess with no easy solutions. The only real and long term workable solution is the two state solution. But to achieve that the Palestinians and their leaders need to accept Israel's existence and stop declaring jihad. Israel can deal with its own extremists. It has done before.

Though, of course, Iran is now involved and there are wider regional conflicts being fought by Iranian and Saudi proxies. God knows how this is going to pan out - but I cannot see a peaceful solution for quite some time.

• *This is their own fault because they are anarchic trouble makers, otherwise they could just live with other Arabs

This is not what is being said, though. The palestinian’s plight is largely caused by extremist leadership.
The leadership is so extremist that not even other arabic muslim states want anything to do with them.
That is not the fault of the majority of the palestinians, but it is where their situation is today.
Hamas is supported by over 75% of the palestinian population say polls posted earlier. This is most likely an artificially high number due to the fact that if you voice disagreement or criticism with Hamas you will be taken, tortured and possibly killed.

However, even accounting for that, there is a distinct possibility that a slight majority of palestinians agree with Hamas. And clearly many palestinians outside of Gaza and the West Bank do to.

That’s an untenable situation, because Hamas’ object goal is to wipe out all jews and create an Islamic state/caliphate that replicates the Ottoman Empire at its largest.

They mean war against the infidels, and the infidels are all non muslims, and some muslims who practise Islam wrong.

Which is why the rest of the Arabic world, bar Iran and I’m assuming the Taliban, don’t want Hamas or palestinians within their borders.

Awful for your everyday palestinian - absolutely horrendous in this war - as NO ONE arabic state will Open their borders for palestinian refugees.

Edit:

No arabic muslim states support Hamas OR will have palestinians as refugees.
It is truly awful, but this is a testament to how horrendous Hamas is.

We are broken hearted. My 14 year old son with autism and learning difficulty has joined a Christian bible study group at school because he thinks he can hide and therefore be safe that way. I cannot even explain how distraught I and the members of my family and community are.

This is a really dishonest parody of what people have said. For one thing, one can’t distinguish someone in Hamas from an ordinary citizen just by eye balling them, and much of your parody is based on the assumption that one can, and therefore Israel is being mean and unreasonable in not welcoming ordinary citizens into its land.

November, I'm so sorry. Do you think that things are starting to shift a bit, even if people are catching on very late?

I’m so sorry.

Christina Lamb ( who wrote our bodies the battlefield) and the Times war correspondent was interviewed today on the 4.30 bbc radio 4 programme ( I think it’s the Media Show), talking about her reporting on the sexual violence of Hamas in the terrorist attacks. She points out that the women they have not released are the young women from the music festival. I hate those men. That older Palestinian man was right. Let them hide in Hell.

I'm so sorry. My heart goes out to you. But I do think there are a huge bedrock of people who feel the same, I certainly hope so.

Thanks @ArthurbellaScott and others. I am not sure about shifting , maybe more that there is a large silent cohort of people who have also been shocked and are not prepared to be public about their support-becuase of the shouting and public polarisation- but are privately expressing their horror.

I live in a rural part of the UK so mainly belong to a very small community who get together mainly just for the big celebrations. Our contact details are on the web and we have had alot of death threats and so forth, but have also been heartened by people reaching out saying how sad they are. In particular our local Catholic community wrote a message to us of such empathy and grief that made me cry (even more).

FWIW we have come together twice since October 7 to pray as a community and we prayed for all the victims of this war. All of them- no matter which 'side'.

Iran supports hamas, be warned some of the descriptions are very graphic.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/dec/06/iranian-regime-accused-of-raping-and-violating-protesters-as-young-as-12

@NovemberAutumn I'm so sorry. I'm glad there are good people, gold amongst the dross, willing to reach out.

Death threats?! Jesus Christ.

That's appalling, I hope that you contacted the police, and I hope they took it seriously.

Sending you all my best. For what it's worth, this has opened my eyes to anti semitism when I had not previously been fully aware; it will have done the same for many others.

Threats and violent hate e-mails are pretty normal any time tbh. Not 'normal' but certainly not uncommon, I mean.

Our local Police commissioner also reached out when it all first happened and we are passing things on. We felt very encouraged by that- a few of us (not me) - met with him and felt quite positive about that meeting.

I had no idea. I'm stunned. I'm so sorry.

I'm glad to hear at least that the police are being helpful.

Thanks @ArthurbellaScott

Sorry- did not mean to derail the thread either!

@NovemberAutumn support from a fellow Jew.
Today I watched as the presidents of Harvard, University of Pennsylvania and MIT, the Ivy League evade answering this question before the US Congress:
"Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate [your university’s] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?"
Harvard, MIT , UofP and calling for genocide

It's not derailing. It's highly pertinent.

Tomorrow is Hanukkah? I'll light a candle for you, if that's appropriate.

Over 58m views at the moment. Do those people not understand English. Calling for something is conduct. The 2nd woman particularly, possibly because of the grinning, really annoyed me.