Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

@ATerrorofLeftovers yes I think that was a follow on point. I found the discussion a bit difficult to follow at times.

In that sense, from that point of view, decrying the human suffering and death (all of which will result in going to paradise) is a particularly western and quite racist imposition, it could be argued.

And I've checked and yes, Hamas are democratically elected. Now I suppose there's a question about whether a death cult - i.e. no number of deaths matters in the fight to rid the word of Jews and the Jewish state (I believe Hamas' clear stated goal) and all deaths are positive and meaningful and to be welcomed - is what the Palestinian people thought they were voting for. I'm guessing not, at least for some.

Hamas are a bunch of death cult martyrs and some(most?) are also Palestinian people.

But that's not an excuse for treating all Palestinians as hamas. Although how you sort one from the other is beyond me. Iirc hamas were democratically elected in early 2000 (2006?). I don't think there's been an election since, though I'm happy to be corrected. It's just occurred to me that's about the time it would take to raise the first hamas generation to maturity.

I'm honestly surprised it didn't happen sooner going by the bigotry and tunnel-vision of a specific group of posters.

They’re as democratically elected as the Russian and Chinese leaders are.

Thanks - useful clarification!

Have Hamas said they'd have a ceasefire too (because this seems at odds with some of the statements they've made)? Or is Israel expected to just sit back and let them attack?

I had been struggling, understanding Israel’s need to root out and destroy Hamas while appalled at the collateral damage to civilians in Gaza.

Then I read about the celebration, as the mutilated abused girls were paraded through the streets, the absence of any attempt from Gaza to distance themselves from the atrocity, and only justification for the attacks because of Israeli oppression of Gaza and changed my mind.

No oppression justifies that barbarism, nor it’s celebration.
When I add in the massive pro Palestine spin I see everywhere it makes me more inclined to see Israel as acting only in its own defence.

Applauding that atrocity in the streets- no, hard to feel sympathy for those civilians now.

Depends on some cases representatives from
Hamas say yes and others no.
Palestinian people that I have spoken to and friends who have extended family who are Palestinian all 100% want a ceasefire and talks.
Hamas are not there for the Palestinian people they’re there for who knows what reason - they have not done anything to bring about positive change and movement towards peace.
Just like the current right wing Israeli government and their lack of pause with settlements an their rhetoric on Arabs.
More pressure needs to be put on Qatar to get the Hamas leaders there to release the hostages safely. More presssure needs to be put on USA and UK to get Israelis to stop the bombings which are not doing anything but killing a disproportionate number of people who had nothing to do with the events that recently took place.
Sadly I can’t see anything meaningful happening to help bring about a ceasefire and peace as ultimately war for some means opportunity and land or opportunity and money.

I didn't see the footage, was it mostly men celebrating?

I suppose it's difficult to know what women in Gaza really think because they may well live in fear of repercussions if they go against the official Hamas position that women aren't worth much and say women deserve rights. We know they have to travel to Israel if they need an abortion.

Yes, it's definitely the case that extreme rightwing men on both sides are screwing things up for everyone else

The forcible taking of Palestinian land recently (not for good strategic reasons) is wrong and inflammatory, and not what a lot of Jews in Israel (or elsewhere) want. I know a lot of Jews who don't support Netanyahu

'The Israelis have it worse'
'No the Palestinians have it worse'
'No the Israelis have it worse'
'I own the land'
'No I own the land'
'I had it first'
'No I had it first'
Ad nauseam.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, who's support base has grown due to the progressive and relentless occupation by Israel of Palestine. The IDF is a legitimate military force supposedly of a democratic state but the behaviour of the two is frankly comparable.

Bombing hospitals and babies and pregnant women and women who have just given birth is not going to solve anything, frankly.

If Israel successfully irradiated Hamas but in doing so killed my entire family the first thing I'd do is start Hamas 2.0.

The ethnic cleansing had to stop.

Sorry for saying 'frankly' twice

You should distinguish between civilian and military targets in war.

However, if one nation (self ruled territory anyway) attacks another nation, then obviously civilians will likely be killed in the resulting warfare, and that is largely the fault of the attacking side. Of course if Israel were deliberately targeting civilians that's a different situation.

Yes sonshine and cake - bit behind with my post but agree with lots of what you both said

think Hamas has been elected once back in 2006 and the Palestinian authority who govern the West Bank, Haven’t had elections since 2006 either so not democratically elected now.

Icake - yes my statement was probably more true before the attacks, the Palestinians are desperate and support for Hamas in the moment for ‘winning’ against the Israeli army and getting their cause in the news may well have risen but I don’t think Hamas would get that support if their daily lives, with no end in sight, were not so awful and there were any other options.

I am of Irish descent - it is conflicting and complicated when you are fighting for your freedom (which went on for centuries and left deep scars) and I guess sometimes the oppressed can’t find empathy for their oppressors - and Netanyahu just upping settlements and rhetoric and getting way with it all as said by PP has inflamed an already untenable situation and has fuelled support for Hamas (as British Occupation did for the IRA).

I think progressivism (including identity politics) has pushed out liberalism and universalism in public discourse. That it is wrong for any woman to be raped within any “context” should be a universal principal. But if you have hierarchies of oppression then some rape isn’t as bad as other rape (apparently).

It is difficult for modern day progressives to reconcile the fact that a minority group or an oppressed person is capable of just being an out and out disgusting human being, it has to be the result of something done to them by someone higher up in the power structure not personal moral choices. It is a lesser crime.

So you have these idiots supporting these groups that hate women, hate gay people, hate personal and civic freedoms. They would have no trouble identifying them for what they are if they were white men.

Btw there have been protests against Hamas in Gaza (put down sharpish) Hamas have for for torturing and imprisoning journalists as well. If they were that popular I think they would have called an election for the sake of legitimacy. The reality is these people think the death of Palestinian’s is a propaganda victory, Palestinians aren’t stupid, they must know Hamas isn’t lifting a finger to help them either.

Women are assualted and raped in war because we are seen as possessions, it's men saying 'we have taken your possession'.

The atrocities on both sides are just that.

"Hamas is a terrorist organisation, who's support base has grown due to the progressive and relentless occupation by Israel of Palestine. The IDF is a legitimate military force supposedly of a democratic state but the behaviour of the two is frankly comparable."

@sonshineandshowers I really do not think you can say that the behaviour of IDF is comparable to that of Hamas.

Hamas fighters have behaved with utter depravity and racially, religiously-motivated blood-lust. Their one-on-one attacks on individual civilians at the music festival cannot be compared to IDF dropping bombs on areas that they have previously warned civilians to evacuate (but that Hamas have forced civilians to remain in).

Hamas has committed war crimes of a deeply barbaric nature deliberately, against individual unarmed families, men, women, children & babies. Depraved, sadistic torture.

Their behaviour cannot be compared or made equivalent to that of the IDF. There is no comparison. Women do military service in Israel; just that fact speaks volumes as to the difference in attitudes between the two.

Why are people so ready, willing and able to forget that Hamas is a radical Islamist terrorist organisation that oppresses women, and would (and does) happily punish homosexuals with death? Why are so many happy to justify their (horrendous) actions? There is no justification for evil of this kind - and I find it terrifying that so many are trying to do exactly that.

Israel is responding by trying to eliminate the threat from Hamas. It is Hamas that uses people as human shields and prioritises the maintenance of their terror tunnels over providing for their people. Israel gives notice to leave, Hamas tells people to stay.

Next day here. Celebrating. One of the speakers has since been arrested, but not the crowd cheering their words.

There are plenty of women and even women's organisations such as 'Sister's Uncut' who have minimised the barbaric atrocities and have even denied they happened at all. Some women even openly celebrated the atrocities.

Women were not only gang raped and the shot in the head before having their breasts cut off; some were then burned, and some paraded around naked for men to spit on. One woman's body was found beneath a pile of rubble with a knife in her vagina. Two women were tied by their hands and legs to beds before being raped and mutiltated; one woman was disemboweled. One pregnant woman had her unborn baby cut out of her belly before it was then beheaded.

Israel is in the process of meticulously compiling evidence for future rape charges. Rape is a war crime.

Rape has always been part of war.
Down the centuries, women have had to have The Talk with their DDs, especially in times of open warfare.
Not the talk about the birds and the bees, but How To Stay Alive When Raped By The Enemy

The IDF is not rampaging through the streets of Gaza raping Palestinian women and girls. Most of the Israeli women who were raped were not given the opportunity to "stay alive"; although I believe some did survive and will testify in time.

You will always notice how devoid the streets of Gaza and the West Bank are of women - that is because women are largely confined to the home and bringing up the generally very large numbers of children they are compelled to have. Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world.

That so many women and children have been killed is because they are at home; in the residential streets, and schools, that Hamas uses to fire its daily barrage of rockets into Israel; often killing their own women and children in the process when their rockets mis-fire. One cache of Hamas weapons was found under a child's bed.