Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

The people of Gaza are being killed as collateral damage, made vulnerable by leaders who hold the security of their people below their ideology.

The Israeli civilians were deliberately targeted. It’s very different.

Building the evidence for future rape prosecutions

https://www.timesofisrael.com/police-start-building-oct-7-rape-cases-focusing-on-footage-and-testimonies/#:~:text=The%20Israel%20Police%20screened%20short,before%20they%20were%20burned%20alive.

Some of the stuff described in the Times of Israel piece is very difficult to read. Several hundred of the 7th October terrorists are in Israeli custody, there will be trials.

I am not disputing this.

There is no guaranteed way of staying alive after rape.

If there were a Bechdel Test for threads, this would fail it. The point was the silence from women about atrocities committed against women, and it's ended up with abhorrent posts like

"when we have ten dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman,"

Which is a male-centric way of valuing women ie not at all. A lot of (not all of) the rest has been a discussion about trying to prove who's worst.

Women are being forgotten in the thread. The thread was about women being forgotten!

The irony.

@SequentialAnalyst ...'down the centuries women have had to have The Talk with their DDs about how to stay alive while being raped ' .
I absolutely understand the position of Women in cultures such as these but surely there are dads who don't want their daughters abducted , tortured , murdered and raped ; they should be having The Talk with their DDs too .
And while they are at it they could include a talk to their sons about not growing up radicalised and turning into raping , murdering men .
Women have been protesting rape FOR EVER , and we are still being raped because men like doing it . They can do it and they get away with it .
(I'm not having a go at you ...I'm just terribly upset . @RebelliousCow 's testimony is a hard , hard read .)

It's such a huge and complex and difficult subject, I think looking at it through a feminist lens is helpful not least because it provides a focus. I also think that as Resister says above, it seems hard to focus on that. Lots of pulls in different directions. Misinformation, contested information, and as others note, much is just so hard to read/hear.

And yes, there is a lack of female voices.

But I am astonished by the silence of feminist organisations.

I've just read through Reem Alsalem's Twitter and found only one retweet about the Hamas atrocities, at which I am just lost for words.

It's a pity an earlier post was deleted - I wanted to read whatever the sources were for the assertions made.

On another forum i post on somone 'excused' the atrocities by saying " It's what terrorists do, but what Israel is doing is far worse".

but surely there are dads who don't want their daughters abducted , tortured , murdered and raped

Maybe some but I think this again is viewing what is happening through the lens of our own society and culture (and even then, there are plenty in our culture who don't value women). I'm sure there are Palestinian men who value their womenfolk but that is NOT the culture, it is NOT what Hamas say women are for (breeding, looking after kids, serving men). Hamas (the Taliban, many other groups) think women are not human like men and do not deserve human rights. That they only count insofar as they are posessions of men and whatever happens to them affects men. And we know in MANY countries women and children are seen as possessions. Many women are KILLED BY THEIR OWN FATHERS if they are seen to 'dishonour' the family e.g. have the misfortune to be raped (something they can't control but of course are blamed for). This is the way it's done, the culture.

Sometimes men go against this prevailing culture but it is - I am sure - hard to do so. Men are not supposed to treat women as equal and by and large they do not. It is very much going against social norms to do so.

I read a really interesting article by a woman journalist in Afghanistan after the Taliban took over. Men who had been colleagues, who she believed shared her values were laughing about how she'd be 'forced' to marry them and not allowed to work. I think many women were shocked by the large numbers of men who they thought were on their side who really weren't and provided no challenge at all to the new status quo.

If you gave women the world over 6 months living in a neutral country under Israeli rule and 6 months living under Hamas rule then gave them a choice I believe it would be 99% pro-Israel. Because women are treated as human in Israel. Hamas don't think women deserve women's rights, they just don't.

Exactly.

I read that the IDF found instructions on the terrorists, things like...

Actually, I don't want to type it. Let's just say Hebrew phrases that could be useful to an aspiring rapist. Of course, just hearsay but if true then rape was part of the plan all along.

I don't understand why women's organisations have been so poor on this. Perhaps why it's so hard to discuss? I cannot get a handle on their attitude. Why the minimisation, why ignore, why the denial? Why so little about the massive part hamas has played in the current suffering of the Gazan women and children, the oppression that was daily life prior to this outrage?

I think part of it is because Hamas is an Islamist organisation, and we shy away from voicing the thought that some Muslims' reprehensible behaviour and attitudes towards women have their roots in that faith/culture - even when they themselves make it crystal clear that they are fighting 'for' their god, and that their prophet is the one who has handed down the rules/norms re women, particularly infidel (in this case Jewish, but see also Rotherham) women, which they are simply respecting and observing as good and faithful Muslims.

(NAMuslimsALT, obviously.)

Now it is 8hrs after the start of this thread on the fact that in times of war, men will rape the women of their enemy. We have rightly started with the Jewish victims of October7th and condemned the gang rape and murder of hundreds of women and girls.

Is it too soon to mention the female Palestinian political detainees currently being beaten, raped and tortured by Israeli soldiers? I feel as a feminist, that we should at least give these women a passing acknowledgement.

I'd just like to point out the difference between the reaction of Feminists to the kidnapping of girls by Boko Haram and this attack. No signs at these protests saying bring the hostages home etc.
They are not peace protests but pro Palestine protests and by default pro Hamas or anti Israel.

"Is it too soon to mention the female Palestinian political detainees currently being beaten, raped and tortured by Israeli soldiers? I feel as a feminist, that we should at least give these women a passing acknowledgement."

I'll absolutely acknowledge them, if you can provide some evidence that this is happening.

I went back through the UNwomen news; they were silent until the 13th October when they released this statement:

“UN Women statement on the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory13 OCTOBER 2023

[Also available in Arabic.] UN Women condemns the attacks on civilians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories and is deeply alarmed by the devastating impact on civilians including women and girls. We reiterate the UN Secretary-General’s call to all parties to ensure the safety of civilians and civilian infrastructure. International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Law must be respected and upheld. Image

Amid relentless violence, families flee their shattered homes in Tal al-Hawa neighbourhood, seeking refuge in the southern Gaza Strip, 10 October 2023. Photo: UNICEF/Eyad El Baba.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza was dire before these hostilities and has now severely worsened. This exacts unjustifiable and specific costs on women and girls. The demand to immediately relocate 1.1 million people from northern Gaza, while the entire territory is under siege, is extremely dangerous.

We reiterate the Secretary-General’s call todayfor unrestricted access for humanitarian actors into Gaza, including the United Nations, to provide aid to the most affected. This is essential to address the desperate, immediate needs of women and children, including to food, water, and protection. We also join in his call for the immediate release of hostages.

UN Women has been supporting Palestinian women since 1997 to achieve their social, economic, and political rights. We remain present on the ground to provide support and assistance and will do so for as long as it takes.”

https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/statement/2023/10/un-women-statement-on-the-situation-in-israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory

One sentence mentioning the hostages, silence on October 7th itself, and a sort of generalised condemnation of attacks on civilians in both places.

Since the article on the 13th October UNWomen have published 7 articles about Gaza. But I cannot see even one article about women in Israel living under daily rocket fire, about Israeli women refugees, or Israeli women and children widowed and orphaned on the 7th October, homes, communities, lives shattered, or condemning the rape, torture and murder of Israeli women.

Do Jewish /Israeli women have to beg to have their story heard too?

https://www.ncjw.org/news/ncjw-israel-womens-network-and-140-womens-organizations-call-for-urgent-action-response-to-un-womens-statement-of-october-13/

“We strongly implore UNWomen – and all other human rights agencies – to gravely condemn the brutal attack and atrocities committed by Hamas to Israeli citizens as well as the abduction of innocent hostages, to urgently act to protect the special humanitarian rights of women and children, and to do everything in their power to expose and recognize these atrocious and horrific acts of violence against women and girls and to bring the release of all hostages immediately.”

Women in Gaza matter. Their voices and stories must and should be shared, and UMWomen are right to highlight their plight.

But I can’t help thinking as a Jewish British-Israeli woman, that the continuing silence from UNwomen when it comes to our women, our hostages, our children, is deafening.

There will always be examples of you look into it….
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/amp/

https://jordantimes.com/opinion/ramzy-baroud/untold-story-abuse-palestinian-women-hebron

Rabbi Eyal Karim as IDF Rabbi some of his comments in relation to women and rape were concerning.

are you joking??? are you actually bringing up a case from 2017?? we are on about 100s of women and girls raped this month!!! do they not at least get a moment of undivided sympathy before you desperately look for a way to balance the scales?

jesus fucking Christ that has blown my mind

I'm absolutely scunnered by this. I'm so sorry.

The reason that women and feminists have not spoken up in defence of the women who were brutally raped and killed a few weeks ago is because of IDEOLOGY.
They grip firmly to their ideology of Israel = evil opressors and Palestine = good victims, and as the story of these women undermines this ideology they choose to ignore it

(or they choose to search desperately through Google for a rape report from before 2017 - ANYTHING to reinforce the ideology)

The same problem occurs with gender ideology - it's why politicians are choosing not to look at evidence of risk against women, why they turn away when the problem of rapists in jails are mentioned, or cases of harm are brought up - because they have bought into the ideology of 'poor vulnerable special transwomen' and they don't want to have to accept that maybe they are wrong and maybe this problem is more complex than simply 'good Vs evil'

Oh let me apologise - since it was a case in 2017 this woman clearly does not have any value - sorry.

I did not realise that violence towards women sexual or otherwise was only an issue if the numbers were high - again sorry.

No where on my comments on this or other threads have I tried to minimise harm caused to any person.

Yep definitely. There cannot be any justification for the October Hamas attacks.

Unfortunately, bombing premature Palestinian babies in incubators doesn’t do anything whatsoever to address the earlier Hamas sexual violence. That’s why the Israeli government is getting so much blowback now. If they had stopped after a couple of bombing raids, nobody would be criticising them.

@DomPom47, the allegation was 'currently':

"Is it too soon to mention the female Palestinian political detainees CURRENTLY being beaten, raped and tortured by Israeli soldiers?"

A rape (always completely reprehensible) in 2017 has nothing to do with the allegation made above.