Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

imagine if hundreds of women in your country, maybe women you knew, or even family members has been kidnapped, raped, killed, still missing. Maybe eve still alive! It's only a hope, there is still hope they are alive!...

and someone mentions a rape from 2017, as to balance the scales. Because it cannot simply be left that these women are VICTIMS.

@sunshineandshowers;
If Israel successfully irradiated Hamas but in doing so killed my entire family the first thing I'd do is start Hamas 2.0.
(name change for this):
Well it happened to we Jews in WWII. My grandfather's family were murdered by the Nazis/Germans.
So no one in my family became a terrorist. I became a Buddhist and one of the hardest things was to work through my loathing and anger and befriend two Germans who were on my retreat.
We became friends.
sadly I'm not surprised by worldwide antisemitism. The irony is, it makes cosmopolitan Jews like me who don't want to emigrate to Israel support it stronger than ever.

I thought of the Boko Haram raids when this first happened, and was surprised by the difference in reaction. But then, I wonder whether Israel’s entirely understandable response moved the story on and away from the hostages.

And the lack of calls from around the world to rescue the hostages- I don’t know who could go about that.

And public silence about some subjects- I think it’s hard to know what to say. It’s a desperate, devastating and also incredibly sensitive situation. We’ve been praying for both sides at church. I know no one who has been all about the Palestinians, actually just one labour councillor and unionist.

I’m losing all tolerance for Islamist regimes. I’m losing the ability to distinguish between them and ordinary Muslims, because of the behaviour we’re seeing.

I mean, the IDFs recently military victory against premature babies at Shifa hospital was pretty stunning.

Not sure what your point around women bejng able to join the IDF proves?

Hamas are a terrorist organisation. The IDF is breaking international law, and behaving like a terrorist organisation. The fact that such comparisons can be drawn should be pretty shameful to anyone trying to defend the Israeli government.

I don't get why two things can't be true at once. As I said, this 'you started it' 'I had it first' 'their worse than me' what aboutery isn't helpful for anyone. But as you were.

Re the babies:

https://twitter.com/ContextFall/status/1725625446321008684

'There are several claims floating around again saying that all of the premature babies at al-Shifa hospital have died. They're at immense risk, but as per the latest update here it is not as some are saying.'

It is happening now. There won’t be evidence until these detainees are released, which may be in years. But eyewitness accounts that have been recorded by human rights organisations show it is standard practice for Palestinian female detainees to be raped, beaten and tortured. There is no reason to believe that the IDF are feeling particularly kind and humane these days. I think it is the height of naivety to think that a certain group of men known for decades to rape their female detainees have suddenly stopped raping during this current conflict.

Of course she has value, hence why the soldier was dismissed from the military, convicted and jailed. And the story was published by an Israeli newspaper, after another israeli news site fought to remove the military gag order.

@ArthurbellaScott that's not a great look either?

Similar to how we currently have no evidence that Hamas is raping female hostages in Gaza, but I can say they almost certainly are doing so because they are known rapists.

Can we not acknowledge that women are victims in war no matter whether they Jewish or Palestinian because it is a fact that men always rape in war? On this thread that is in feminist section and should be focussed on our sisterhood as women?

So if there was an example of a rape from last week Tuesday or sometime in September, what would that change ….nothing.

We would still be in the same place.

Hamas will have still done what they did, Israel still would be retaliating disproportionately and women and later children on both sides will through an incomplete or one sided narrative be facing the brunt of this conflict.

We still have leaders on both side and people on both sides who are more interested in one upmanship rather than seeing that both side are in the wrong and have not dealt with the business of peace but hate - be that in that fighting tactics or otherwise.

Sorry, what? I'm posting a fact checker's account of the situation.

We can talk about evidenced facts, rather than hypothetical scenarios.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/head-of-canadian-campus-sexual-assault-center-signs-letter-denying-oct-7-rape-cases/amp/

article about groups actively denying the rapes took place.

the denialism coming from women is absolutely stocking to me

Putting premature babies at immense risk isn't a good look. Do you disagree?

As far as the UN goes, I know there are good people there doing good things and trying to fight for women but let's not forget this is an institution that a few months after the murder of Mahsa Amini in Iran for wearing her headscarf incorrectly appointed Iran to be Chair of the UN Human Rights Council Social Forum.

EU foreign affairs chief Josep Borrell defended Iran's appointment as a matter of regional rotation, “in consistency with established UN procedures.”

Oh well, that's alright then. The UN is full of misogynist men.

It's abhorrent. I also find the suggestion it's any kind of 'look' fucking awful.

Don't forget that when the UN put the call for a ceasefire to the vote they refused to include an amendment suggested by the Canadians to also condemn what Hammas has done. I have become very cynical of the UN over the last few years which is a shame.

Can you post some links, please.

I'm baffled by Reem Alsalem's silence. I'd like to ask her about it.

This IDF soldier was imprisoned for his crime.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/

@sonshineandshowers

I don't get why two things can't be true at once. As I said, this 'you started it' 'I had it first' 'their worse than me' what aboutery isn't helpful for anyone. But as you were.

Pointing out that Israel is defending itself against a terror organisation, and tries to limit civilian casualties, while Hamas is trying to destroy a lawfully existing nation and slaughter its civilians, seems like a very helpful point, when some people apparently don't understand the difference.

https://mondoweiss.net/2022/08/how-colonizers-weaponize-rape-reflections-from-the-palestinian-case/

I think you can be disgusted and heartbroken by the horrible violence done by Hamas ( and yes it’s hard for me to even write down what they did for various reasons) and also still feel the same for the Palestinian civilians.

All the relevant organisations should be condemning behaviour on both sides. Hamas were barbaric but technology that gives you distance from death and destruction doesn’t give you the moral high ground.

I don’t think Israel’s response has been proportionate - I don’t think that not targeting women and children is an excuse for killing thousands of them. We didn’t mean to kill them means nothing, not in those sorts of numbers and isn’t an excuse.

The Israeli government has allowed thousands of settlers to take land from Palestinians in the West Bank with no consequences, Palestinians live under security measure like there were in Northern Ireland during The Troubles, Soldiers on street corners, checkpoints etc. The Israeli government weren't sitting round twiddling their thumbs when this happened - saying the attack didn’t happen in a vacuum is not excusing it.

No. ‘Both sides as bad as each other’ will not cut it. We are talking about systematic murder of innocents and rape of women. Planned and executed by the rulers of Gaza. ‘Both sides’ are not doing this.

The attacks on Oct 7th show you clearly why those checkpoints are necessary. Do you think the Israelis should get rid of them and see what happens? The security was massively ramped up in the first place in response to bus bombings etc.

And again, whilst any killing is awful, there is a moral and legal difference between what Hamas did (deliberately torturing and killing civilians) and what the Israeli army are doing. When the Israelis are systematically raping and torturing civilians we can say both sides are as bad as each other.