Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Sorry for your loss, that's just unbearable. I think as Jewish women we are feeling so many complex emotions just now that are actually quite hard to square and articulate at times, because they may appear contradictory to the goaders on here, but they're not at all (within the context of our feelings on Israel but what's also happening in Gaza). It's all about picking a side for far too many people. I've felt completely bewildered at how so-called feminist groups have been silent about the rape and torture of Jewish women - it's almost made me feel like I was going mad.

However there are, like you say, many mature voices that are doing a very good job of putting the intelligence, compassion and fears of Jewish MN'ers across. These more nuanced voices are definitely giving me hope and lessening the anxiety anyway.

I just came across this thread last night. It's one of the best I've seen (for the most part) since Oct 7, thank you @ArthurbellaScott

Everyone mentions the blockade, but no one mentions Egypt. Egypt have a border with Palestine too, why is there no honus on them to open the borders, in this current crisis for refugees, but also in previous years.

It's like the people who are in the streets shouting about Palestine couldn't even point to it on a map.

As is said, if the Palestinians put down their weapons, there would be peace.

If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be a massacre of Jews.

If you want "peace", then you need to understand that the Arabs have never wanted that in the past (may have improved with some Arab countries) and Hamas in particular has an extremist supremacist ideology that motivates them. You can't do a "peace deal" with Hamas.

I want to try and say this gently..... and with compassion.

Do you not see that your posts are taking a very clear 'side'? Because it's really clear as day to the rest of us...

Another question I have regarding this, and this is a genuine question I would like help with (as with the above)

Why is being anti-Israel inherently anti-semite?

People can feel strongly against one countries actions without necessarily being racist to the people who live there.

I (personally) see less anti-Semitism, but more just naivety and polarised thinking.

I do agree that taking sides is not the answer - and I think the extremes on each side (including the clueless westerners getting involved) are going to result in worse outcomes for all. The more under threat Israel believes itself to be, the more it looks at the world's response and thinks 'they really don't care if there's another Holocaust' then their options narrow and narrow, especially if they believe that the political support from countries like the UK and US could be under threat in the future. A PP said if Corbyn was PM things would be very different and this is true - I am sure the Israeli government has thought about this.

Taking extreme positions can only push the other side to further extremes. Of course Hamas starts from an extreme position - what is needed is alternative Palestinian leadership. There are many Jewish people who I know do not support the current Israeli leaders or the land grabs. However, if they believe that the rest of the world is coming to a position that Hamas' stated policy position to eradicate all Jews from the earth is somehow 'justifiable' then I think their position may very well change out of necessity.

This report is from the 17th Nov

https://www.newarab.com/news/red-cross-chief-meet-families-october-7-hostages

The Red Cross have not had access to the hostages at all. All info is via Hamas which is of course totally reliable. The Red Cross has not lost contact because of Israel ‐ they have been denied access to the hostagesby Hamas.

We do know that the hostages have been distributed among Hamas and other groups.

Exactly. I absolutely agree with all of this.

That’s not what the report says. It doesn’t say they have had no access to the hostages at all. It says:
”Spoljaric insisted however: "We cannot do this alone; agreements must be reached that allow the ICRC to safely carry out this work."
"ICRC cannot force its way in to where hostages are held. We can only visit them when agreements, including safe access, are in place."

They were visiting them as that is how they facilitated the released of the four hostages: “The ICRC stands ready to facilitate their release, as it has done for four hostages so far."

The criticism is more that the lack of humanitarian pauses in the fighting and the fact that IDF has targeted and killed Red Cross workers in Gaza means they are not getting safe access to the hostages they need.

I disagree. This idea that one side will never agree to peace is the barrier.

I commented on this before:

The thing with calling the far left "antisemitic", is of course they are going to defend themselves that they, "are just being critical of Israel's oppression and no government should be above criticism".

And of course, in theory, it's a true point that you should be able to be critical of any government. But then people are going to reply along the lines that obsessing over the world's only Jewish state, and basically wanting to see it destroyed, and sympathising with the lunatic terrorists of Hamas, does look kind of suspicious as antisemitism anyway.

(End of quote)

You can compare with the accusation of "Islamophobia / racism" made against people on the harder right, or sometimes against atheist liberals.

In that case, people defend by saying that it's a criticism of ideology, and all ideology should be open to criticism. So it's not "racist" or a "phobia" to attack an ideology that has harmful consequences.

But then people may respond that it's an unfair attack on a religious group that is really motivated by a disguised bigotry.

So it does get a little complex, and depend on your perspective, whether you see something as "real racism" or not.

With Israel, maybe you take into account things like: are people using a double standard? Are they spreading misinformation? Are they marching with people that want to see Israel destroyed? Are they getting into conspiracy theories?

It is true I am responding to posts that are clearly taking a side which includes posting misinformation about the conflict. If correcting the misinformation is then perceived as taking the opposite side, then I am sorry for that.

I just don’t think things like Gaza was blockaded because of Hamas when the blockade predates Hamas or if Israel agreed to peace, all Jews would be massacred because Arabs can’t be trusted or while Hamas is likely raping hostages but it is unthinkable that Israeli soldiers are not doing the same to female Palestinian detainees when it is a fact both groups of men are known and proven to be rapists. These are comments that take a side that I can’t let go unchallenged.

I’m on the side of peace. Of a ceasefire. It’s the side that cares about all women and all children on all sides. If you look at the sum of my posts, you will see that.

Brick wall, only wants to hear own voice but isn't one sided at all of course

Sounds like a lot of men I know

Well logically the Hamas people could agree to peace, but they would have to give up their Hamas ideology first.

As long as they have the ideology of Hamas, they can never do a genuine peace deal. They can do a temporary ceasefire, but not a peace deal.

So you need to recognise and understand what kind of extremist ideology you are dealing with, if you want to work towards peace.

or if Israel agreed to peace, all Jews would be massacred because Arabs can’t be trusted

It’s not because Arabs can’t be trusted (nice insinuation of racism there), it’s because Hamas have specifically stated that that is their intention, to repeat October 7th as many times as they can.

Do you think Hamas shouldn’t be believed?

I would say as a Jew that the antisemitism is evident in the feminist orgs that won't speak up for the raped and abused female and child hostages.
All I can think of now is this:
"Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?"

There has been extremist genocidal rhetoric from both sides of the conflict.

So both Israel and Hamas would need to calm down and start acting rationally and humanely.

The link is to 3 minutes of genocidal statements by Israeli leaders over the past few weeks. It was posted by the OP of a thread currently on MN called
the truth about the Israeli government of you’d prefer to view it that way
https://x.com/CarlEckett/status/1725540121196302723?s=20

This

Hamas said after pogrom that they would repeat it again and again.

They are always clear to anyone listening without bias about their intentions. They have been all along. It is apologists that lie about their intentions. Even before they were about Arafat was also very clear and honest and what he called the Arab cause. Most Muslim people I know are clear about what Hamas has said and wants. It is only some westerners and exstemist Muslims that lie about what Hamas wants and have stated clearly their intentions are.

In war what happens is enemies will use rhetoric to dehumanise their enemy as a way to desensitise their own troops to the massacring and bloodshed that the leaders in power want their troops to do to the enemy. They also use this rhetoric as part of propaganda so that their own populations will accept the deaths of civilians in the enemy’s territories. They will be less likely to protest at seeing scenes of dead women and children, of hearing reports of their soldiers raping enemy women if they don’t view them as human or think they somehow deserve it.

In addition, the rhetoric has to portray the enemy as an existential threat, so the leaders have to make sure their soldiers and civilians think that such all out total war is necessary for their own protection. That it is a choice of either they get gang raped and killed, their children bombed, or you get gang raped and your children killed. This is how they generate public support for such a war and motivate their soldiers to feel like defenders rather than attackers.

This is not special about Gaza. This is textbook. And again, as in every war, it inevitably ends in the fighting stopping and peace terms being negotiated. So it’s not about believing or not believing, it is about recognising the fact that no war can go on forever. They all end and it is better to end them sooner rather than later because history has shown us that if they are let to rage on with no 3rd party international intervention, the more powerful side can indeed keep going until genocide has actually happened.

rhetoric has to portray the enemy as an existential threat

🙄

Written on this thread :Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

Nice

Hamas are a terrorist organisation that want to kill all Jews, worldwide.

"Enough warming up... We must attack every Jew on planet Earth and slaughter and kill them."

Fathi Hammad, 2019 speech.

I don't see that it's possible to negotiate with someone who has this aim.

I simply don't believe that the Israeli government wants to bomb Gaza completely flat and kill all Palestinians dead in the same way it's the stated objective of Hamas to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. Apart from anything else, Israel could have done that if that was what they wanted, already.

If Hamas had the means to do so, I think Israel would already be wiped from the map - I think they've made that very clear. I don't think this is what most Palestinians want though, but it definitely is the position of their current leaders.

When anyone starts from a specific position in an argument and refuse to listen to alternative perspectives or evidence then I quickly get to the point of thinking that a person is arguing in bad faith.

The double standards point of a PP above is also important.

Giraffe I didn't know you knew nothing about how a war properganda works or the conflict did you?

That was a surprise

Bloody hell @ArthurbellaScott that is really chilling.

The only thing I will say is that I don't speak Arabic, so I can't verify the translation.