Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Do a search I have a whole file of similar speeches and statements from Hamas leaders in my phone

This stuff is not to hard to find and shows just how delusional some posters are

Same man, 2021 speech.

https://www.memri.org/tv/snr-hamas-official-fathi-hammad-urges-people-jerusalem-cut-off-heads-jews-knives-day-reckoning-moment-destruction

Again, I don't speak much Arabic. But he is using hand signals to indicate how to behead people.

http://www.webgaza.net/gaza_strip/north_gaza/people_profiles/Hammad_Fathi.htm

So, is it the position of some posters that they are not being biased by believing Hamas’ genocidal rhetoric unquestionably to the point that peace talks are not an option while simultaneously dismissing Israel’s genocidal rhetoric to the point that they think Israel would gladly accept peace? This would seem to be excusing one side, while holding another side more accountable for the same kind of genocidal rhetoric.

@BabaBarrio

I just don’t think things like Gaza was blockaded because of Hamas when the blockade predates Hamas

How is that a real case of "misinformation"?

What you said yourself, was that there was a temporary blockade starting in 2005, and it became a permanent blockade when Hamas came to power in 2007.

That fits fine with me saying that Gaza is blockaded because of Hamas being an enemy.

Where is the misinformation?

What was happening in 2005, is that Israel was pulling out of Gaza, and presumably they maintained some controls. I don't know how long that was supposed to last. But when Hamas comes to power, Israel then has a legitimate reason to have a continuing blockade.

You seem to be just quibbling over nothing, rather than pointing out any "misinformation" from me.

'being biased by believing Hamas’ genocidal rhetoric'

So when Hamas leaders say they're planning to behead all Jews, we should know that they're just being 'rhetorical' and don't mean it. Gotcha.

Baba is havering, I'm sorry, I've no time to interact with bad faith posters.

Why do people only condemn Israel for the blocked borders, but not Egypt?

I don’t think it fits fine with you saying Israel had to blockade Gaza because of Hamas. Gaza went from full on military occupation since 1967 into a siege like blockade with the military encircling it instead of being an internal presence. There was no let up, there was no moment of Gaza having any freedom from occupation or ability to control who and what goes in/out of the strip by air, land and sea whatsoever from 1967 to today. The technicalities how this reality was imposed are details often misused to obscure the basic fact that Gaza never had a chance to prove itself.

he problem is that most people in the pro-palestinian marches do not know about this.

Most people I know think they are defending to victims against the perpetrators, they don't have any context, any knowledge, any understanding of the situation.

Useful idiots.

People these days hold incredibly strong opinions without very much Information as is also the problem with the trans movement. People declaring 'protect trans kids' without even knowing what the fuck they are talking about

Israel controls the Rafah border crossing into and out of Egypt through military enforcement.

Only able to see one side themselves. So presume others are like that too

When from what I have read on this thread it is full of posters that look at all the information available on both sides in a critical way. Then make a non bias informed decision and post about different aspects of the conflict.

Hi @BlessedKali

I'll answer this as best I can.

I personally think the problem is that there is very little to no awareness or understanding of antisemitic tropes, imagery and language. Meanwhile antisemitism has been around for millennia and it can run very deep (like misogyny). So sometimes, people don't recognising they are veering into antisemitism in their criticism of Israel, because the first metaphors or language they access in their criticism comes directly from the deep well of antisemitic motifs. (Other people are using it on purpose, but they are lost causes anyway!) Once people have a deeper understanding of the tropes that have existed about Jews for millennia, they find it easier to decipher criticism of Israel that is not racially loaded, and criticism that is. I always urge everyone to avoid the tropes and "hot spots". As women we understand this well.

Typical tropes -

The blood libel - Jews kill non-Jewish children for their blood (the "excuse" for many massacres of Jews over the millennia and in modern times also has morphed into organ trafficking).
Power - Jews secretly run everything and hold all global power - media, governments, business, banks, etc.
Disease / dirt - Jews are inherently dirty or cause diseases (lots of this came out around Covid)
Manipulation - Jews manipulate the non-Jewish world to do it's bidding
Loyalty - Jews are not loyal to the places they live, or to non-Jews, only to themselves.
Deicide - Jews killed god (obvs this comes from Christian tradition)

I could go on...

So, if you believe Hamas, do you also believe Israel? And if not why not?

I haven’t said anything in bad faith, I have explained how wartime rhetoric is used and that this is textbook and ultimately not an indication that peace is not an option.

Ignoring maybe some Jewish fundamentalists, Israel does recognise the Palestinian territories. More conservative positions may not want them to have a state for security reasons, but that doesn't deny them self-rule.

Or Hamas

Because all three have to agree to them opening

Hamas stopped for days international and duel citizens leaving at the beginning of the conflict. Even once Egypt and Israel agreed they could exit if on lists. Hamas apparently wanted to haggle and negotiate terms of this. Similar to what they have been doing about the hostages. Some British MPs were calling for British citizens in Gaza that wanted to leave to be called hostages. A day or so after this because public knowledge Hamas finally agreed to people leaving.

Hamas is seen as a big problem by the Egyptian government too.

There was no let up, there was no moment of Gaza having any freedom from occupation or ability to control who and what goes in/out of the strip by air, land and sea whatsoever from 1967 to today.

All those vintage guns, bullets and parawings really did a lot of damage.

Yet they got fed up of having rockets fired at them and terrorists attacks on tourists years ago.

It was all very destabilising for the Egyptian economy and tourism. They rely on tourism a lot.

Most the middle eastern states are fed up of Hamas. It all stated before Hamas too other groups of Palestinian fighters have caused issues. Jordan killed more Palestinians in black September than Israel had in fifty years since 1948. The Palestinians tried to topple the Jordan leaders and take over the Jordan.

People these days hold incredibly strong opinions without very much Information

@BlessedKali

This sums it up really, and it's dangerous. It's dangerous when it comes to the gender ideology issue and it's dangerous when it comes to Gaza. It's really just tribalism, people are told what to believe by their tribe and even if there is reams of evidence to the contrary, the lie persists, somehow because any tiny suggestion that the group member might not believe the lie will result in ostracism .

And what the hell are they teaching in schools given so few of them seem to have the tiniest clue about the Holocaust?

One thing I've heard very little about is alternatives to Hamas - is there another, less extreme political party / set of leaders in Palestine?

I had found an informative list of different parties/factions/groups within Palestine, pronouns. Some are more militant, some more political, some are allied to Iran, Hezbollah, etc. I'll see if I can find it.

Here we are:

https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/

I should have added: Swapping "Israel" or "Zionists" for "Jews", but keeping the antisemitic tropes or old school Nazi imagery (Jews as rats, Jews with massive noses, fat Jews oppressing the masses, Jews pulling puppets on strings, Jews with tentacles squeezing the planet) - This is where a lot of people get themselves into trouble. They claim plausible deniability: "I said Zionists/Israel, not Jews". But I believe if you want to criticise in good faith, you consciously stay away from all of it!

And I should say Swastikas are a no-go no matter what.

Because Hamas treats any real opposition the same way Putin does

The PO were tipped to take over Gaza as well for a short time once Israel withdrew again. Lots of meetings and handshakes between them, Israel and the Arab leaders of other States. However things have moved on a fair amount since then. Most Arab leaders and even the PO are still only doing lip service about the deaths to keep their own citizens happy. However it is looking unlikely the PO will get hold of Gaza now.

It seems things have shifted significantly since Abbas went (2007). I did find that site upthread very useful, clearly laid out and lots of information that seems to be fairly non-partisan.

There's a video here with a woman agreeing with the rape of female prisoners https://twitter.com/AzzatAlsaalem/status/1721206049007403154 (disturbing content, obviously)

From the Red Cross website.

They have not been granted access to any hostages.

I currently don’t have time nor inclination to go through all of @BabaBarrio posts to find inconsistencies and falsehoods, but here’s one dealt with.