Page 9 | Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

ArthurbellaScott · 2023-11-18T09:31:06+00:00

[[https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/]] I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account. The rest of it I think is an important read.

Trulywonderful · 19/11/2023 17:40

All the were killed two days after the pogrom terrorists?

Then who has been firing missiles at Israel since the pogrom on 7th October?

Who are keeping the hostages captive?

Who was it in the video that handed over the two old ladies that werehostages?

Is the poster suggesting that ordinary civilian Gazens have been doing these things?

Very confusing

IcakethereforeIam · 19/11/2023 17:48

I assume the hostages must have toddled off to Gaza by themselves, if all the rapists and murderers stayed behind to behind to be killed.

Trulywonderful · 19/11/2023 18:29

IcakethereforeIam · 19/11/2023 17:48

I assume the hostages must have toddled off to Gaza by themselves, if all the rapists and murderers stayed behind to behind to be killed.

The old lady that said she was laid across a motorbike and men hit her with sticks as she passed them on the way to the tunnels. She must have just ridden the motorbike herself or something apparently

Decemberdaily · 19/11/2023 20:15

@ArthurbellaScott signed, thank you

LoobyDop · 19/11/2023 20:16

Thank you for starting this thread, OP. The antisemitism in the UK now makes me sick and ashamed. I’ve had to disengage from my local feminist group because of the way they’re responding to this.

@deepbluebell I am so, so sorry for everything your family are suffering.

nepeta · 19/11/2023 21:26

It should be possible for someone who believes one side in a war is waging the just war while the other one is not to also accept that the just side can commit war crimes against the side this person deems as the unjust side.

It should be possible for feminists to condemn mass rape, even when those committing it may be men oppressed for reasons unrelated to their sex (such as racism or caste or social class).

It should be possible for feminists to accept that a group oppressed on some basis can also eagerly oppress others on a different basis or that it would turn the tables if it could, and then it should be possible for feminists to condemn all kinds of oppression. For instance, it should be possible to both support the Palestine people and to condemn those in their leadership who do not want women to have equal rights.

And those feminists whose ideology is based on the concept of hierarchies of oppression should contemplate the fact that someone's position in that hierarchy can be situation-dependent, can vary depending on which axis of oppression we are focusing on, and that everyone has the ability to do both evil things and good things.

They should also seriously ask what it means for feminism to have become the only social justice movement which is expected to prioritise concerns other than the well-being of the group the movement was created to advance, given that no other social justice movement I know of uses the concepts of intersectionality or oppression hierarchies in a similarly self-defeating way.

Trulywonderful · 19/11/2023 22:14

nepeta · 19/11/2023 21:26

It should be possible for someone who believes one side in a war is waging the just war while the other one is not to also accept that the just side can commit war crimes against the side this person deems as the unjust side.

It should be possible for feminists to condemn mass rape, even when those committing it may be men oppressed for reasons unrelated to their sex (such as racism or caste or social class).

It should be possible for feminists to accept that a group oppressed on some basis can also eagerly oppress others on a different basis or that it would turn the tables if it could, and then it should be possible for feminists to condemn all kinds of oppression. For instance, it should be possible to both support the Palestine people and to condemn those in their leadership who do not want women to have equal rights.

And those feminists whose ideology is based on the concept of hierarchies of oppression should contemplate the fact that someone's position in that hierarchy can be situation-dependent, can vary depending on which axis of oppression we are focusing on, and that everyone has the ability to do both evil things and good things.

They should also seriously ask what it means for feminism to have become the only social justice movement which is expected to prioritise concerns other than the well-being of the group the movement was created to advance, given that no other social justice movement I know of uses the concepts of intersectionality or oppression hierarchies in a similarly self-defeating way.

Good post

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 19/11/2023 22:26

Yes, nepeta.

OP posts:

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/11/2023 08:12

nepeta · 19/11/2023 21:26

It should be possible for someone who believes one side in a war is waging the just war while the other one is not to also accept that the just side can commit war crimes against the side this person deems as the unjust side.

It should be possible for feminists to condemn mass rape, even when those committing it may be men oppressed for reasons unrelated to their sex (such as racism or caste or social class).

It should be possible for feminists to accept that a group oppressed on some basis can also eagerly oppress others on a different basis or that it would turn the tables if it could, and then it should be possible for feminists to condemn all kinds of oppression. For instance, it should be possible to both support the Palestine people and to condemn those in their leadership who do not want women to have equal rights.

And those feminists whose ideology is based on the concept of hierarchies of oppression should contemplate the fact that someone's position in that hierarchy can be situation-dependent, can vary depending on which axis of oppression we are focusing on, and that everyone has the ability to do both evil things and good things.

They should also seriously ask what it means for feminism to have become the only social justice movement which is expected to prioritise concerns other than the well-being of the group the movement was created to advance, given that no other social justice movement I know of uses the concepts of intersectionality or oppression hierarchies in a similarly self-defeating way.

Good post and you're right, it should be possible but apparently, on the evidence so far, there are a lot of people for whom it really isn't possible. For whom everything needs to be reduced to which team you're on with no nuance or capacity for compassion for both sides. It's tribal - and if you don't 'align' with the right progressive views on ALL matters you are automatically right wing and 'in the wrong'.

These people (who predominantly are 'pro' Palestinian without usually having bothered to read any factual evidence about the current situation) are not really helping Palestinians. In fact in their knee jerk virtue signalling, huge incorrect assumptions reduced to soundbites (e.g. reproductive justice means free Palestine etc) and inability to consider facts and evidence, or history (apparently), I would suggest they are harming both Palestinians and Israelis. The people suffering on both sides really deserve better than being used in a western culture war.

It's frankly worrying - what the hell are they doing in Universities these days to churn out so many people completely incapable of critical thought?

Grammarnut · 20/11/2023 08:44

I saw one of the pictures of women with bloodied trousers - Sky or BBC, can't remember, and also Youtube - and pointed out to DH she had been raped. He did not think so, she could walk! and sex doesn't cause bleeding, more likely she had sat on the blood he could see in a van. He won't move from this and I can't make him understand...and yet he has helped with the prosecution of at least one rapist when he was in the Youth Service!

pickledandpuzzled · 20/11/2023 09:33

Grammarnut · 20/11/2023 08:44

I saw one of the pictures of women with bloodied trousers - Sky or BBC, can't remember, and also Youtube - and pointed out to DH she had been raped. He did not think so, she could walk! and sex doesn't cause bleeding, more likely she had sat on the blood he could see in a van. He won't move from this and I can't make him understand...and yet he has helped with the prosecution of at least one rapist when he was in the Youth Service!

Dear God

pickledandpuzzled · 20/11/2023 09:35

“, I would suggest they are harming both Palestinians and Israelis.”

A bit like Patriarchy harming men as well as women, even though men are not the subject of the oppression.

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/11/2023 09:58

@deepbluebell I am so sorry for your losses.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 20/11/2023 09:58

The people suffering on both sides really deserve better than being used in a western culture war.

Absolutely.

OP posts:

deepbluebell · 20/11/2023 10:22

Thank you everyone for your kind messages. Even though we are anonymous it means a lot to me. In fact, the entire discussion on this board gives me hope. (Especially now that the bad faith posts have stopped!)

Us Jews are feeling very anxious about the atmosphere swelling around us at the moment. Just knowing there are empathetic, mature voices of acknowledgement does a great deal to quell this anxiety.

BabaBarrio · 20/11/2023 10:38

PorcelinaV · 19/11/2023 00:05

@sonshineandshowers

Gaza as blockaded by land, air and sea because the Israeli government want a land ethnically cleansed of Arabs and Christians.

Complete nonsense.

Gaza is blockaded because Hamas are a legitimate enemy of Israel. They don't hide the fact that they are an enemy of Israel!

You're allowed to blockade an enemy, and obviously the whole situation is the fault of Hamas for wanting to destroy their neighbour.

Gaza was blockaded in 2005, it was only after Hamas came to power that the temporary blockade was made permanent in 2007. The Israeli blockade of Gaza has violated multiple international laws, but every time a resolution to sanction Israel for breaking the law goes to the UNSC, the USA uses their veto to protect Israel from being held accountable by the UN. The decades of the USA making Israel above international law is one reason why they now are acting with complete impunity and have derisively dismissed every UN resolution and directive that the USA has allowed to pass.

Every year, Israel forcibly expels more and more nonJewish citizens, makes them stateless and they end up going to one of the many refugee camps in Gaza or what is left of the West Bank. The high birth rate is not the only reason why Gaza is so densely populated.

BabaBarrio · 20/11/2023 10:44

Lolapusht · 19/11/2023 09:34

According to @BabaBarrio the Red Cross have checked on each hostage every other day and the UN made sure they were getting the same food as their Hamas captors so I’m sure they’re fine. Well, excluding the what, 4 or 5 who have been found dead this week.

Show quote history

The hostages are not all fine. Have you missed the fact that the Red Cross/Crescent have been including the deaths of hostages from Israeli air strikes? It is currently up to 60 or 70 killed. Since the health system collapsed due to IDF targeting Gaza hospitals and medics, the Red Cross has lost contact with some groups and so the death tolls have been estimates for the past ten days.

This increasing number of hostage deaths due to Israels indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is why over 30,000 Israelis protested their government just this past weekend because it is prioritising destroying Hamas over getting the hostages back alive.

deepbluebell · 20/11/2023 10:46

(Oops I spoke too soon )

Trulywonderful · 20/11/2023 10:46

deepbluebell · 20/11/2023 10:46

(Oops I spoke too soon )

Yep

QuiQuiKitty · 20/11/2023 10:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

BabaBarrio · 20/11/2023 10:54

InvisibleDuck · 19/11/2023 09:55

That poster should probably inform this man https://forward.com/fast-forward/569865/rabbi-hunger-strike-hostages-circle-avidan-freedman-honi-choni-protest/

Possibly inform the Red Cross themselves. From the article:

"A Red Cross spokesperson said Tuesday that the group is committed to facilitating the release of hostages held by Hamas but said it has no access to them"

So much misinformation out there. It's awful thinking about those hostages and what they must be going through. I was also incredibly shocked by otherwise progressive people I know trying to obscure the kidnapping, rape and murder of women as 'resisting colonial occupation' or similar. Justifying it. Truly disturbing.

Show quote history

Yes, that is as of 15th November, as I said the health system collapsed ten days ago in Gaza and successive communications blackouts caused by IDF caused the Red Cross to announce shortly after that they had lost contact with some groups of hostages and could not access them. Hamas will be moving the hostages about from location to location. The ceasefire and hostage release should have been done a month ago for it to be realistic to get them all back unharmed. Half of Gaza is scorched rubble and craters, which was a course of action chosen by Israel knowing the consequences would mean likely sacrificing many hostages.

BabaBarrio · 20/11/2023 10:59

@deepbluebell
So sorry for your friend and the trauma you are experiencing due to the massacre by Hamas. As you said
The whole conflict is rooted in sides. There are no sides, there are traumatised women and children (and men) who need to find a way back to peace through imperfect compromise, forgiveness, healing and deep humanity.

Fantasyanswer · 20/11/2023 11:02

EdithStourton · 18/11/2023 20:04

This thread has gone in an entirely predictable direction:
OP: Hamas did horrendous things to Israeli women and many feminist organisations have failed to criticise this.
Thread: ends up with the usual argument about the IDF, Israel etc.

Can we just, for once, concentrate on how fucking evil Hamas is? And how bizarre it is that raped, mutilated and murdered Israeli women can be ignored by so many feminist groups?

This.

Fantasyanswer · 20/11/2023 11:10

BabaBarrio · 18/11/2023 21:35

@ResisterRex
“The point was the silence from women about atrocities committed against women, and it's ended up with abhorrent posts like
"when we have ten dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman,"

The abhorrent post was the one before calling me a psychopath for caring about Palestinian women now and today in addition to the victims of Oct 7th, because it “minimised the suffering of Jewish women.”

That poster was out to silence women on the atrocities that Palestinian women have also suffered and are currently suffering.

So my response to that poster and only that poster, was if not now, when there are 10 dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman, when would I not be a psychopath for also caring about the suffering of Palestinian women in Israel’s territory and are also suffering atrocities in the exact same conflict? When it’s 20 to 1 or sometime in 2024? When can we talk about all the women suffering in this conflict? When will Palestinian women become worthy of our notice in her view?

She certainly viewed Palestinian women as less than, my questions were to find out how much less than does she view them? And at what point can one break the silence and not be called a psychopath by her?

That's me you are talking tosh about.

I did not at all say what you claim I did, but it is strangely gratifying that you need to lie about me to make your case.

I said it the cold logic of your case that because all the rapists of Israeli women were now dead ( which will not even be true btw) it was ok to move on from that to another group of women, was near psychopathic.

PorcelinaV · 20/11/2023 11:12

@BabaBarrio

The decades of the USA making Israel above international law is one reason why they now are acting with complete impunity and have derisively dismissed every UN resolution and directive that the USA has allowed to pass.

And the UN is a fair adjudicator? Or they have any real democratic legitimacy?

Hamas are a legitimate enemy of Israel. They don't hide that they are an enemy.

Putting them under a blockade is an entirely reasonable action, and they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't do it.

It's either blockade them and try to limit their ability to wage war, or have a full war against them. Either way, they will be criticised by people that don't have their responsibility to protect Israeli life.