What's going on with Genspect?

[MalagaNights]

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

There is nothing gender non-conforming about a bloke having a paraphilia or prioritising his own sexual wants over the needs and welfare of others. Men like this are not transgressing gender roles. The only thing they are transgressing is the boundaries of other people.

His paraphilia is transgressing gender norms in clothing and perfroming it in front of others. It gives him a thrill, that's how he is transgressing the boundaries.

You talk as if there are other men dressed in women's clothes where they are not transgressing other people's boundaries? Do you think that?
Who might be an example?

It's not about 'a conference', 'a ballgown', 'a man', with or without AGP, it's about Genspect, what they think they are about and whether they can lump everyone together in a 'Big Tent', including paraphilic men who trample the sexual boundaries of others, and still safeguard the vulnerable groups they seek to serve.

His paraphilia is transgressing gender norms in clothing and perfroming it in front of others. It gives him a thrill, that's how he is transgressing the boundaries.

Its a man performing very male traits - transgressing boundaries and forcing others to partake in his paraphila. Those arent typically womens traits.

AGP, or whatever we want to call it, isnt gender non conforming at all.

You appear to be interested in theories surrounding society formation and the resulting effects on women; I linked to this book on feminist politics a few pages ago - you might find it interesting. It describes the various schools of feminist thought and theory - all of them have differing interpretations of how current cultures are the way they are and why there are disadvantages for women (and men) from these.

https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315003221/feminist-thought-rosemarie-tong

Just realised my start to this post makes me sound like Clippy 😁

No, fetishistic cross-dressing is a particularly male behaviour.

You talk as if there are other men dressed in women's clothes where they are not transgressing other people's boundaries? Do you think that?
Who might be an example?

I have no idea. Perhaps there are lots of men who would love to wear dresses but don't want to look like perverts. Perhaps the AGPs have spoilt it all for them. That's sad, I'll add it to the long list of things it's not women's job to sort out.

I agree.

I cant see how they can be advocates for families with gender distressed children and support any adult sexual behaviour in public. Or suggest that distressed children are in anyway part of those groups of men.

We know groups want 'trans' to be large umbrella term, but thats does not benefit children and their families.

Thanks @UtopiaPlanitia .

I'm not sad for them at all @PencilsInSpace but I do think it's relevant.

It's very easy to state Genspect should just ban AGPs but Genspect have to think very carefully about what action they can take, the rationale they would give, what that would mean for other men in dresses attending, how they'd communicate this and the legal context.
They could face legal challenge.

I also think it's relevant because to me it exposes inconsistency in the wider feminist position.

But I think I've made that point.

I think separate arms and conferences may be the way to address it, as mentioned previously.

I wonder if Stella will go this route?

I think it's clear that we should be suspicious of all men who wear opposite sex clothing, and quite frankly I do wonder if a lot of the men who wear kilts may actually be AGP and use it as an excuse to wear a skirt.

Ok now you've gone even further than I would 🤣🤣

But I agree with your first point. We're obviously not experiencing a fashion revolution here, which I think should be obvious, but so many feminists still insist those men in women's dresses is just fine.
It's odd.

'Upkilting' is indeed a thing.

Hardly anyone in the UK wears african dress

Other matters aside, except for a relevant population, and in specific contexts, it might be seen as an act of cultural appropriation.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/10/26/658924715/when-is-it-ok-to-wear-the-clothing-of-another-culture

Maybe for some women the act of stating publicly they’re fine with non-AGP men wearing women’s clothing is just that and maybe for some it isn’t so much an enthusiastic support for the behaviour it’s more an attempt to show their liberal attitudes in order to forestall criticism that they conservative and old-fashioned/sexist.

And maybe some women really are fine with non-AGP (or even AGP) men wearing women’s clothes in any situation. But as previous posters have said, give boundary-crossing men an inch and they will take a mile, so society/ feminism needs to address the issue with this new perspective/male behaviour in mind. No homogenous approach will result because feminism isn’t one homogenous school of thought. But good faith discussions are interesting and help to develop/refine arguments, even on a personal level.

Organisations like Genspect need to address the issue urgently, so hopefully the YouTube discussion this evening will be a basis for beginning that conversation.

Yeh that's the reason no one is wearing it...

Why is hardly anyone dressing as a bunny, a Knight, a spaceman, wearing Georgian wigs, or top hats?

There is no special need to wear a dress anymore than the above, men want to do it because it's what women wear.

Everyone knows that really.

With regard to Stephanie Hayton being AGP despite dressing conservatively:

I've met him twice and his conservative dress did minimise the level of discomfort/ uncanny valley, but maybe it's just good cover?

He was certainly very male in his interaction style. He talked extensively at me about himself and didn't ask anything about me 😁

Also one of the sexologists who researched AGPs, found that for some of them even wearing a plain white T-shirt from the women's section was arousing for them. Not sure if it had to have a particularly feminine fit or not.

So potentially those men could wear a plain white women's t-shirt under a jacket or coat, and it would be difficult to know (because the cut would be hidden). So perhaps there needs to be a process where we check the labels of the clothing to make sure that the men aren't cross-dressing?

I think a big part of it all is letting everyone know. Either by telling them directly, or wearing clothing thats obvious.

Izzard used to talk a lot about his cross dressing - 'theyre not womens clothes, they're mine' but that was an excuse to talk about his cross dressing. Would we know he was wearing womens trousers if he didnt say? if its no big deal, why bring it up?

I think forcing everyone to see is a stage after secret cross dressing. Saying 'as a tw', and wearing cardis maybe enough for some, others may force it onto others by wearing high heels or odd dresses.

I’m just watching the livestream now, catching up as I started watching late. But so far, Stella has been talking nearly constantly for nearly 45 mins. It’s very interesting to know her thinking but I thought this was going to be more of a discussion 🤔

I've not read this thread. But just came directly from the Benjamin Boyce livestream. It was a really good discussion. I really feel progress made in understanding between KJK and Stella. It can only be to the good of this movement. Well worth watching and thanks to Ben Boyce for hosting it.

@UtopiaPlanitia they both talked at relative length. But Stella was describing her experience and Kellie was listening and then responding. BB said almost nothing throughout which is laudable given it is his channel.

Yes, I was fooled once by Izzard hiding his fetish in plain sight, I won't be fooled again now by this new version.

"Here is my fetish, be in no doubt that this gives me a boner, here I am performing it in front of you and explaining it while doing so. Have I told you about my book? It's all about my fetish. It's all OK though, I know I'm not a woman"

Jane Fae is one who gets off on conservative dress.

Ha yes, Stella certainly talked a lot!
However, lots of good stuff came out of that monologue/discussion. KJK was great and really did lead the way on where the discussion went and the tone within which it took place.
Benjamin may learn a thing or two and perhaps he'll be kerbing some of his more recent bravado on the subject. There certainly seemed to be a united front between the two ladies on the harms of the acronym. It was also good to hear a) the centring on Genspect's purpose and b) Stella saying that she would reflect on the aftermath and her messaging clarity.

If this has started the ball rolling properly on wider awareness of the acronym, that will be a good thing.

From what Stella was saying about Genspect's approach, it does leave me more hopeful that the framework may not have been compromised. Does anyone know the review deadline date? I would still like to read it and send a response.

Most of it is Stella talking. It was very frustrating in the usual ways but she appeared to take on board that Genspect need to reflect which is a definite step in the right direction.

Once again you've completely misunderstood what I was saying.

You have taken the word "dictate" rather too literally. I was simply referring to the social norms, which most people, as you have observed, conform to most of the time. Most people conform because they don't want to stand out as "odd", and also, unless they are willing to make all their own clothes, they have to wear what is available in the shops. The different styles for men and women are also part of what limits their choice.

I even suspect you wear women's clothes. (I may be wrong) Some women do wear mens' clothes and of course yuo can still tell they're women, but it is unusual. Even neutral style clothing is diffrent in some way. I'm wearing joggers and a sweathirt right now, as is my husband, but if we were to just swap styles there would still be something off about it.

I sometimes wear men's clothes. I have a few pairs of men's jeans (thicker denim, proper pockets) and I often wear men's t-shirts. I'm not sure anyone looking at me would know they were "men's clothes". How would you tell?

It's only possible to say that fetishistic cross-dressing is a particularly male behaviour because, in many societies at least, there has already been a social transformation which has enabled widespread wearing of hitherto typically male fashions by women.

Of course, at the time these transgressions began taking off, those women were labelled as deviants, perverts with unnatural sexualities and sexual desires.

And on the AGP angle of course many , many born women answer in the affirmative to questions that Ray Blanchard used to establish the concept of autogynophilia. Eg ‘I have been erotically aroused by contemplating myself in the nude’, or ‘I have been erotically aroused by contemplating myself wearing lingerie, underwear, or foundation garments '.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343552498_Autogynephilia_A_scientific_review_feminist_analysis_and_alternative_'embodiment_fantasies'_model

There are plenty of women you are walking next to, sitting next to etc who have chosen their underwear that morning because it makes them feel damn sexy. Are these women forcing you to participate in their fetish too?

Married At First Sight is an enormously popular reality TV show and on this year's show a couple used a vibrating egg during one of the dinner parties, presumably they were forcing others present to participate in their fetish too, to a much, much greater degree? - I presume everyone in FWR sent in thousands of complaints about that?