What's going on with Genspect?

[MalagaNights]

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

Its odd that some feminist ideas 'clothes arent sexed' are embraced by men and other ideas 'keep men out of womens changing rooms' are ignored. It smacks of cherry picking to me.

I see it as men wanting to keep certain clothes sexualised. If men regular wore stockings in public, men would find it harder to be aroused by them, they would just become clothes rather than sexy.

So men are refusing to embrace certain clothes to keep their sexual intetest in them going, but at the same time pretending that they dont consider them sexual at all when they are the ones wearing them.

Yes it's total cherry picking.

And yes where ever the norm moves to, the thrill will be transgressing it.

Which is why we didn't use to socially tolerate transgressing norms in public or formal situations. It was a place for conformity not thrills.

There wasn't a ban, there was judgement, social disapproval, ostracism, soft negative social outcomes.

Now judging others is worse than transgressing the group norm. It's open season for narcissistic fetishists.

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/grayson-perry-on-transgender-awareness-and-working-out-what-modern-masculinity-means-a3372916.html

'...the inveterate publicity-seeker, who is now 56, admits that greater trans-awareness, together with his ever-increasing fame, means that cross-dressing in public no longer holds the thrill it once did. “One of my joke regrets about becoming well known is that it’s ruined being a transvestite. Now I’m not the anonymous weirdo in the street, I’m Grayson Perry. I’m on duty. If I’m cycling in a dress, people want to have chats and a selfie. It’s nice but at the same time I don’t get that frisson of being ‘othered’ and stared at, or have the fantasy of being humiliated, which was all very exciting,” he laughs.'

Thing is, it is the transgression of the male body into female clothing and the accompanying uncomfortable females who witness this that is part of the thrill.

If half of all men wore skirts or dresses, then it would be normalised and thus less exciting to men with fetishes. Hence 'wear what you want'.

They need female clothes to stay 'female only' otherwise they won't get their kicks. That's the point.

Maybe about as odd as how many men embraced the sexually liberated ideas of noughties feminists like 'sleep with as many men as possible'.

Shame used to be a huge enforcer of social norms.

We've done away with shame and this is the result.

People are no longer shamed for transgressing they are celebrated.

If however there is a time when men's skirts have become a normal dress code, I'd have no objections to this being introduced to school for boys.

I agree with this. It doesn't make sense to introduce men's skirts in formal situations yet. Let men wear them socially until it's not weird and they are provided as part of the normal range of clothing. Then organisations can include.

Kilts and other traditional clothing that are skirts or dresses demonstrate exactly how this can work.

If half of all men wore skirts or dresses, then it would be normalised and thus less exciting to men with fetishes. Hence 'wear what you want'.

There will always be difference's established between men and women's clothing. If not dresses something else. Or the style of the dress. Humans want to advertise their sex on the whole.

You are right if we reached a utopia where there were no longer any differences in the way the sexes dress there would be no way to transgress.

But that will never happen & I prefer to deal with reality.

Kilts and other traditional clothing that are skirts or dresses demonstrate exactly how this can work.

Exactly.

For those of you who say feminists have not supported men transgressing social norms around dress what do you think of this bloke?

https://torontosun.com/news/weird/male-disney-employee-dressed-as-fairy-godmother-sparks-outrage

What do you think about boys wearing dresses to school?

Feminist responses to the man in a women's dress at work: it's fine: as lonf he's a nice not agp man

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4817376-disneyland-greeter

There will always be differences though. Both sexes wear shirts but men's shirts don't have darting for breasts in them, as one example.

You infer I don't live in reality.

I know there will always be differences. They know there will always be differences. If there wasn't, there would be no boundaries to transgress. They need the differences to be able to transgress into them.

This isn't about clothes. It is about boundaries. It is all about boundaries. Hence wanting Genspect to be better at safeguarding. They had his book on their website, they gave him the ticket. They actively encouraged his participation. That needs addressing.

There will always be difference's established between men and women's clothing. If not dresses something else. Or the style of the dress. Humans want to advertise their sex on the whole.

Most people don't need to "advertise their sex". Their sex in almost all cases is obvious.

Why would I want to "advertise" my sex when my sex is so obvious? And even if it wasn't, why do you think I would I want to do this?

I don't know if you want to. I presume from your response you don't.

It's not required to identiufy sex, but people in general do choose to emphasise the communication of their sex through their clothes.

Why do you think gendered clothing has existed across time and cultures?

I think we largely agree.

Except in this sitaution the boudaries are about clothes. Clothes are the way they are transgressing.

Unless you think he shouldn't have been allowed to attend at all?

But another bloke in a ballgown who hadn't said he was AGP could?

Do you object to him attending wearing those clothes, or to him attending at all?

Would you be fine with another bloke in the same dress who said he wasn't AGP?

I think you have extrapolated from your own preferences to "people in general". I don't even understand what you mean by "communication" of sex. Whatever I wear, even if my clothes are literally "men's clothes" it's always obvious that I'm female, so I wouldn't need to "communicate" my sex even if I thought it was important to do so.

I presume that "gendered clothing" has existed for the same reason as any other clothing fashions. There are also very different styles in different parts of the world and throughout history. Why do any of these styles exist?

Why do you presume you know my preferences?

Fashion always exists and it's always gendered. Why is it always genedered?
Becuase it's fasion isn't an answer.

Why those styles at particular times? Loads of reasons in fashiosn history. Often to signal wealth and elitism, or in group, which is why it frequently changes. But always remains gendered across time and culture.

I do find it very odd that you don't think there is any reason for a persistent differentitaion of clothing of the sexes across time and culture. Just an amzing fasion coincidence?

Of course styles and modes differ across time and culture but why always differentiation between men and women? Maybe humans want to emphasise the sex differences through clothing?

TBH it's nonsense like this, that culture sprung from nowwhere, that puts me off feminisism.

Great article by Dr Em

uncommongroundmedia.com/understanding-your-nigella-the-harms-of-transvestic-paraphilia/

OK, I think I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I do find it very odd that you don't think there is any reason for a persistent differentitaion of clothing of the sexes across time and culture. Just an amzing fasion coincidence?

Just to be totally clear. I don't think this, and I haven't said this.

I thought you were saying that individual people chose to signal their sex. I think from this post you are saying that it is society which makes this decision by dictating what is deemed to be appropriate clothing for each sex. This is obviously true in most societies (I say most because I am not ruling out the possibility that either now or at some point in history, somewhere in the world, this isn't/wasn't true).

Of course styles and modes differ across time and culture but why always differentiation between men and women? Maybe humans want to emphasise the sex differences through clothing?

Or maybe it's because men's and women's bodies are a different shape. Or perhaps because their different social roles require(d) different clothing. There are many possibilities.

TBH it's nonsense like this, that culture sprung from nowwhere, that puts me off feminisism.

I don't know what I've said that you've interpreted as "culture sprung from nowhere". But why would some (not necessarily well thought out) comments from some random person on the internet (who is most definitely not an academic feminist) put you off feminism?

This may seem logical, except it doesn’t stop the men who got aroused by wearing a dress, they now needed to do the next thing, something more incursive/harmful to women. By maintaining the barrier at clothing meant that it took a relatively small transgression.

I object to Genspect having his book on their website and giving him a ticket.

But that is their choice to make, I can choose to now think they are captured if they fail to see the issues here.

I'd suggest that they should be on the lookout for those that are trying to infiltrate their new methodology yes, as we know that activists are known to want to get in at the start to sway the agenda their way. This should not be news to Stella.

They got played, big time, by a hulking great AGP.

And in just over an hour we will be able to hear from Stella about her current thinking on this.

P.s...a woman wearing a blue ballgown to a conference will be looked at strangely yes. A man wearing one, brings the added risk factors as they are transgressing multiple boundaries. So yes, I would expect him to be asked to dress more appropriately if he wants to stay.

I thought you were saying that individual people chose to signal their sex. I think from this post you are saying that it is society which makes this decision by dictating what is deemed to be appropriate clothing for each sex. This is obviously true in most societies (I say most because I am not ruling out the possibility that either now or at some point in history, somewhere in the world, this isn't/wasn't true).

In western culture individuals do choose their clothing and most choose clothing which signals their sex by conforming to the cultural norms for that sex. Society doesn't 'dictate' what people wear, people are society. We signal to each other all sorts of thinsg through our clothes and fashion evolves. We are mimetic and communicating through our clothing.

Hardly anyone in the UK wears african dress, or a crinoline skirt, not because it's banned or because it's dictated but because it's not the norm and we know that, and we respond in a human way to the norm. Humans are social group animals, we're not autonmatons beiung dictated fashion by a tyrannical committee.

I suspect you wear fairly average western style clothes (I could be wrong, but odds on I'm not) is that because you just happen to like the clothing that is normal for this time in this culture, what an amxing coindcinece. or did someone dictate to you you wear that?
Neither, you have chosen clothing which fits within the current norms as you aware what that is and you choose to conform.

I even suspect you wear women's clothes. (I may be wrong) Some women do wear mens' clothes and of course yuo can still tell they're women, but it is unusual. Even neutral style clothing is diffrent in some way. I'm wearing joggers and a sweathirt right now, as is my husband, but if we were to just swap styles there would still be something off about it.

Clothes are comminiating all sorts of things, and as most people choose to conform to norms for their sex one of things communicated is our sex. There is a reason for this, deep abiding human group behaviour reasons, whihc makes it highly likely it will alwaeys be true. As it always has been.

It's things like this that put me off, not your one off post.

That's helpful thanks @AlisonDonut

Would you have been OK with him attending if he wore neutral mens clothes?

Are you saying that no man, even if not agp, should be tolerated wearing a ballgown to a conference?
I wish we were still in those times, how would an organisation be able to that now? On what basis?

Yes will be intersting to see what Stella says.

There is nothing gender non-conforming about a bloke having a paraphilia or prioritising his own sexual wants over the needs and welfare of others. Men like this are not transgressing gender roles. The only thing they are transgressing is the boundaries of other people.

The issue is that genspect know this, everyone knows this because he makes no secret of it. Nobody has to guess why this man is wearing a dress because he's written a book about it.

Yet genspect and many others in the 'gender critical movement' are acting surprised and outraged that any of us have a problem with their championing of this man.

We're not stupid, Genspect! Don't piss on our leg and tell us it's raining.

This is spot on:

I'd suggest that they should be on the lookout for those that are trying to infiltrate their new methodology yes, as we know that activists are known to want to get in at the start to sway the agenda their way. This should not be news to Stella.

They got played, big time, by a hulking great AGP.