What's going on with Genspect?

[MalagaNights]

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

The man has published a book talking about his fetish. Wearing the clothes is behaviour. He's openly fucking with everyone, it seems.

I have been a supporter of Genspect's work but this sits really uncomfortably with me. Not just that they posted a photo of an AGP with a cutesy message but that his book was on their list of recommended reading.

I'm here for women and children. Including trans widows who have been terribly hurt by their AGP husbands. Genspect's statement didn't really address people's criticisms and they went on the counter attack on Twitter pretty quickly.

Standing For Women went wrong a few years ago when they suggested that disabled toilets could be the "third space" answer and were similarly criticised. They made a genuine apology and everyone moved on. If Genspect want to do the same that would be great.

But they're normal clothes (I think?)

We can't have social rules that some people can wear certain clothes and other people can't because of what they think when wearing the clothes.

That's just not reasonable or possible.

That's why the social norm no men wear women's clothes in public was so useful.

Once we get to men wearing women's clothes is fine, but only for some men where we approve the motivation, we were bound to hit this issue.

Clothing is a tricky one to criticise as women’s clothing is just stereotypes.

Women wear highly sexualised or revealing outfits. We’ve seen vagina hats on marches. I don’t know how we can police one sex without the other.

inappropriate clothing Its like trying to define porn - it’s more that you know it when you see it. Overt Fetish wear obviously but can we really put our foot down on regular clothing?

I don’t want to give this person a platform to talk about their fetish (although sunlight is useful) but I’m uncomfortable with banning people ‘we don’t like’ especially from a conference set up to look at these types of issues.

Indeed. And the knock-on effect that's playing out on Twitter (the infighting amongst GCs) is unpleasant.

It reminded me of what Freda was saying after the IEA conference how it all went to plan, people fell in to Freda's trap and it was all part of the artistic process. Perhaps Freda's artist process efforts were just entry grade level by comparison.

I do think it's helpful that Genspect is listening to the view of the acronym that can't be named from an insider's view too. There is a lot of valuable insight for the new gender dysphoria framework. However, they should have mitigated for what a self-confessed such person might be likely to do when attending in person.

His book is about normalising it as a sexual orientation. That kind of conflation is taking things right back to gender affirming care. There are some tweets saying that the book also talks about the only effective treatment being cross sex hormones. If that's the case he needs extra guardrails putting in place when his (useful) insight in to this aspect of gender dysphoria is brought in to the conference. There will be many adolescent boys who don't even realise that the acronym applies to them so it's helpful that the conference can learn as much as possible about this side of things.

Stella O'Malley knows this whole subject very well but she's struggling on comms right now from what I can see. She called the promotional tweet from the Genspect account a mistake first of all. Then in the "Split" article that she wrote (which has some bizarre TRA language in it about some women wanting three letter acronym people dead), she says she's not sure if it might be a mistake.

The detransitioners seem particularly badly impacted in the whole mess 😔

I really hope that Stella can pull this back together ASAP. Genspect has done some amazing work and what they are putting together sounds like it will be a huge improvement on the current WPATH standards that currently govern many countries' approaches to providing care for people who experience/self-diagnose gender dysphoria. I'm going to read it and respond within the timeframe but I'll be very closely watching out for any further failures in letting this kind of influence in to what they are delivering. On a positive note, she has said that they will be taking another look at his book - so this suggests that hopefully he's not had that much influence and really was just a conference attendee - who should have been told to wear something more appropriate if he wanted to be there. That dress was completely incongruous with the event and was barely any better than what Freda wore.

Genspect isn’t a women’s or feminist organisation though is it? My understanding was it was trying to be a more evidence based gender one. So they are already starting from a position GC women are likely to disagree with.

If everyone is very clear that this is a man who writes about his fetish openly, and attends a conference wearing his self described fetish costume, and all participants are made aware that this man will likely be aroused by their responses to his presence/appearance, and any interactions with him in costume, then that will remove the non consensual aspect of the performance.

It needs to be made clear to everyone beforehand.

I just don't see any benefit at all in engaging with AGPs. How does it help women and children out of the mess we're in? If I didn't "consent" to being part of an AGP's fetish does that mean I couldn't go to the conference?

I don't know why we ever need to "understand" harmful paraphilia, it feels like yet again women are being told it's our job to fix men. And I'm really fucking tired of it.

Yes, exactly, Rhymes. He's managed to make the whole conference all about him and his fetish. What a coup.

'If I didn't "consent" to being part of an AGP's fetish does that mean I couldn't go to the conference?'

This.

At a conference about trans issues...

People can't say "we need to talk about AGP" and then say "AGP people shouldn't be allowed to talk".

You go to these conferences you would know what to expect.

What a coup indeed. FFS.
Genspect were running the conference and the comms. They failed to recognise the level of risk they were dealing with by bringing in his voice (which I still think is very useful to help understand what the framework needs to consider) and put in the right mitigations. The only one that would have been appropriate would be a strict dress code for him, so that he was prevented from this performance and the conference would then be protected from the inevitable aftermath of finger pointing etc.

I learned my own lesson about clearer communication on a similar subject this week. But I'm not in charge of who enters what threads, nor was I aware of what was being said outside of what I had seen myself - I definitely regret my wording choice in my final shit sandwich direct message to the interloper (next time no bread) and I'll learn from that. By contrast Genspect were the arbiters of all of it. When they cast their net wide - which is the right thing to do, given their aims - they need to think about the protocols for managing the risks that this brings in. I'm sure they will next time. Right now, they are firefighting (with mixed success) on Twitter.

So people are angry. What do they think should have happened - that Genspect refuse entry to him for not wearing "approved" masuline clothing?

It might be about "forcing" people to take part in his fetish (though I'm not sure exactly how he would do this if they decide not to), it might not. There's a whole lot of confident, abolutist assumption about somebody else's internal psychology going on here. Kinda reminds me of gender ideology in fact, and I'd say the same thing as I do to gender idealogues: you can make whatever unevidenced and unfalsifiable assumptions you like about other people and use them as a guide to your own action (boycott the conference in protest?) all you like. What you can't do is impose rules upon others on the basis of them.

Hmmm I’m quite conflicted about this.

Genspect is an amazing organisation but I think we need to remember that they are a therapeutic organisation, not a political group.

But I find the whole agp thing problematic. It’s largely these men who are fuelling the attempts to remove women’s boundaries.

So maybe if agp were acknowledged more openly and such men had counselling and therapy available to them to try to direct their sexuality into less self destructive and more other-oriented channels? If that’s even possible ….

It might be about "forcing" people to take part in his fetish (though I'm not sure exactly how he would do this if they decide not to

Part of his fetish is being seen in public by others dressed in 'women's ' clothing.

Anyone who is in his presence and not blind will be involved. Any response will be providing fuel.

Do you not understand what AGP actually involves? It's a form of exhibitionism, a paraphilia that depends, as most paraphilias do, on non consensual participation.

Their statement came off somewhat angry-defensive IYSWIM.

The question must be: what attracts an AGP to such an event?

Also - who is angry?

Genuinely, how is listening to AGPs useful? "Trans" is supposedly about gender dysphoria. AGPs aren't "trans". They know they're men. They like being men because being men is essential to their fetish.

I believe this man's argument is that most people who call themselves trans are AGP. I think this must be the book by the man who wrote that article which is being discussed on another thread?

I think the bloke was also at fault - we can't police dress but when someone has been so open about it and everyone knows what the fetish is and then they wear particular clothes that are clearly those clothes it is unsettling. And he should / must know that.

So people are angry. What do they think should have happened - that Genspect refuse entry to him for not wearing "approved" masuline clothing?
(My italics)

No. If he wanted to wear a dress he could have chosen something far more appropriate for the event that didn't scream Performance Art. Or... if he really wanted to demonstrate that he was there for the benefit of the conference aims he could have had his own self-awareness kick in. Either way, THAT style of dress was deliberately incongruous. Safeguarding at an event has nothing to do with being ableist.

For anyone who hasn't been in to the weeds on Twitter, this comment that I have just responded to is at the heart of what the infighting is all about. GC women are being told that they are trying to push "gender non-conforming" (not my choice of phrase when describing people who don't follow sex-based stereotypes) in to boxes of approved dress codes. So with that in mind, I'm not going to respond on anything about the dress again. Apologies if that means I upset any of the MN regulars by not doing (this is not my intention) and... I'll accept that it's possible that I've been too nice with this response but I'm not going to start flinging round breadless shit sandwiches straight off the back of one comment.

Yep, this is the chap: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4940515-a-queer-perspective-of-the-acronym-with-no-name?page=3&reply=130682383

Two tweets that take different stances:

x.com/safeschools_uk/status/1723794527813587166?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Responding like this to serious concerns being raised is a #SafeguardingFail in itself.

Reflection is needed here. This is not reflection.

If your organisation deals in any way with either children or their parents, or policy that affects them, then you DO need to understand #safeguarding.
If you do not have a thorough understanding of safeguarding including #SaferRecruitment your organisation will always be vulnerable to infiltration, resulting in harm to the vulnerable.

We would like to be quite clear that Safe Schools Alliance is neither a ‘GC’ organisation or a ‘feminist’ organisation. We are a child safeguarding organisation. We will always call out safeguarding failures. When organisations have safeguarding failures, they need to be acknowledged and remedied; not minimised, and those raising concerns demonised.

We would like to reiterate that safeguarding is not a box ticking exercise, it is not a policy, it is not a one off training event, it is a culture.

Whenever we see safeguarding failings like this we are resigned to there being more revelations to come.
#Edutwitter #WomenEd #RestoreSafeguarding

(Need to find second)

x.com/detransaware/status/1723775766129963374?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Knowing I am putting my head on the block here, let me say Stella and Sasha helped me get me daughter out of the cult, so did a lot rad fems. I cannot thank everyone enough who I used for information- @4thWaveNow_ @pittparents @gigilarue4 @Miriam_Grossman @genspect. The religious right is in the war and the lesbians/gay men. We need us all. We are all fighting differently but steadfastly. While the book promo was in bad taste, the fact that an AGP was at the conference was expected. I bristled at others too but I know that to fully understand I must see it all. Stella invited WPATH members to come. Can you imagine if they came? We risked being exposed to all sorts of folks we dislike. I did not agree with every speaker. We also need to understand the patient to understand the cure. To close, it’s easy to be a critic, it’s much harder to pull off what these large organizations are doing. Let’s get back to it now please. We can go to our separate corners once it’s over. Please keep fighting. Please keep the coalitions going. We have much to do and little time left. Humanity is resting upon our shoulders. Suit up and get back out there. Thank you for each and everyone of you doing your part. You are all amazing humans.