Caster Semenya on BBC1 now

[Davros]

I had to turn off

I saw it this morning. It was phrased in such a way as to be misleading - crucially so. Call me cynical but I don't think this was an oversight / typo.

That clears it up, the original quote left out the ‘with’ internal testes.

I think Emma wanted to give CS the opportunity to be heard, so that listeners who might or might not be aware of the intricacies of DSD could make up their own mind about CS’s story.

By not taking what could have been seen as an aggressive stance by stating “you are a man because your DSD only occurs in genetic men” she gave CS an apparently sympathetic platform, which then allowed CS to show exactly what sort of a person he is , his attitude towards women athletes, towards fair competition in sport, his refusal to acknowledge how male DSD athletes can have an unfair advantage over female athletes, his refusal to acknowledge that his own physical advantages were caused by testosterone not training.

I think Emma led the interview very successfully, and was informed, polite and respectful. CS on the other hand responded as a man by talking over her loudly and quite aggressively, refusing to acknowledge points she made and not answering questions that didn’t meet his narrative .

Does anyone remember where the clip of Semenya slagging off women & girls is? It was a non UK tv interview, iirc. In it Semenya is very keen to distance Semenyaself from female people.

Basically Semeny is a man with medical problems (internal testicles), but Semenya’s father perhaps wasn’t keen on the idea of a son with no balls and so raised Semenya as a daughter - incidentally giving Semenya a lucrative prestigious career in female sports instead of whatever fate awaits an African man with no balls.

Not true. Semenya was raised as a boy, wore the boy's uniform at school and was recognised as a boy by everyone in his village. He only became a "girl" after he was scouted - at which point a birth certificate was magically issued stating he was female.

Plenty of threads here about him if anyone wants to research.

Caster has fathered two children with Caster's wife.

Case closed.

If Caster really was a biological woman with a DSD, then TRAs would not be arguing Caster's case so vociferously. That in itself is a sign of who Caster really is and how TRAs really see Caster. Because TRAs don't care about biological women.

They also celebrate like a man

Semenya on the 2016 Olympics podium with two other DSD athletes.

No actual females in sight.

But according to Semenya, there is no advantage to being a biological male …

Given the GI capture at the BBC over the past 10 years and the fact that it is still not being honest or accurate about sex in many contexts (though it is becoming less uniform in its adherence to GI), I wonder if the reality is that EB has a limited amount of freedom about what she can say (and keep her job) - but is brilliant at sticking to that while making the truth quite plain or allowing/leading her guest to do so.

If EB really thought CS was a woman she would not have done the interview as she did. And yet all she did was stick to established facts (while avoiding the biggest fact) and ask obvious questions. CS actually said "I won't give an opinion on trans issues because I'm not transgender" (paraphrasing but something to that effect). If CS is male (a matter of established fact) and not trans, then CS is not a woman. CS said that not EB.

Now EB and WH/the BBC are getting a hard time on twitter for not stating the obvious fact that CS is male, and being misleading. But that's the best outcome for those who care about reality, given the probable restrictions.

I've always found this the strangest 'gotcha', because unless all trans people are claiming to have DSDs it doesn't really mean anything.

Interestingly I was scrolling tiktok and found a page by an Intersex woman, who is very clear that it is not the same as transgenderism nor does she consider herself to be.

I wonder how most intersex people feel about trans identity.

(NB I personally don't think that CS is a woman even if CS is male and trans - but that would be the BBC dogma.)

Regardless of the issue of sex in sport- on which I believe women's sporting categories should be XX only- it feels utterly grotesque to be speculating on someone's genitals, their fertility or how they had children. If there's anyone out there with the same DSD who is open to questions then go ahead and ask, but suggestions on here are never going to provide an answer and only serve to further incredibly invasive gossip.

The bbc has now amended the article
"At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or with internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.

This ^^

It’s unnecessary and adds nothing as the relevant facts are the known male DSD condition and the known facts about T production being in the normal male range.

Regardless of the issue of sex in sport- on which I believe women's sporting categories should be XX only- it feels utterly grotesque to be speculating on someone's genitals, their fertility or how they had children. If there's anyone out there with the same DSD who is open to questions then go ahead and ask, but suggestions on here are never going to provide an answer and only serve to further incredibly invasive gossip.

But it wouldn't be happening if CS/other males had not put themselves in this position. If you think about it, discovering or knowing that you are biologically male - along with having very obvious male musculature, body shape etc - would or should make most people think "I don't belong in the women's category". The only reason any males are there at all is because some males are prepared to take advantage of being considered female when they are not - whether that's CS or a trans woman. ost decent people wouldn't. I'm sure there are many males with DSDs and many trans women who would not have the gall, arrogance or selfishness to compete against women in a female category, because the unfair advantage is wrong. Those who do are going to end up having their "femaleness" interrogated.

(But yes I agree it's unpleasant and must be difficult - but CS could just say "I'm male and shouldn't be there")

There’s this one below where Caster talks about growing up with boys, and girls being “too soft”:

I agree to a degree but unfortunately what little coherent argumentation provided by CS's book to support being a woman amounts to: a) trust me, I can tell; and b) I have a vagina. this v word appears dozens of times in the book (though CS is strangely coy about referring to testes, which she never does once). if this is one of the two core planks of her case then scrutiny is absolutely inevitable.

CS - “Why are men dictating what happens in women’s sports?”

Oh the irony.

It was very obvious in that interview that Semenya was raised as a boy. He talked about the other sports he played - football, basketball and boxing. He credits his athleticism to his parents being good at sport - his dad played football, his mother played netball. Semenya didn’t play netball though, he played basketball. And he did boxing. I wonder how many girls did boxing? Very few I suspect.

He said that his testosterone gave him no advantage over women as if it did, he would be much faster than women, not just a bit. He’s just a pretty average runner when competing against men though.

Margaret Wambui, who got a bronze medal in the Rio 800m, has called for a 3rd category so he seems to have a bit more of a sense of fair play than Semenya.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57239439

Semenya’s career is over. He won’t ever be able to compete against women and he’s not good enough to compete internationally against men.

I agree that it's horrible and I hate the trend to tell all about your life and intimate medical history, BUT...Caster has formed a lucrative career (and denied female athletes the opportunity to excel and win those same prizes) on the back of his claim to be a woman. Caster should have been prepared to undergo a sex test - I heard him say that he refused one. Why wouldn't people speculate?

Caster is a cheat and a misogynist and it’s outrageous that the BBC is giving him a platform to spout disinformation, paid for by the British public. I am furious.

I feel sorry for her in a way as she has a DSD (and it's hard when you don't fit in to one category or another)
Sorry for him?! Why don't you feel sorry for the female athletes? He was purposely scouted for - as are all the other male DSD atheletes. He was raised as a boy, got married in a suit to his wife, fathered children and is an outright cheat. The BBC is gaslighting us all.

Semenya's DSD is the very closest to a normally biologically functioning male body in sporting terms as it's possible to get really.

I agree that CAIS, and possibly even PAIS, are irrelevant to the question of transwomen in female sport (although not both necessarily to the question of male DSDs in sport), but if Semenya can compete then any man with male puberty, and fully available testosterone in his body can compete.

Pass CS to run in competition, and Mary, previously-known-as Maurice, can argue to compete without any testosterone suppression or surgical intervention, otherwise it's unfair.

CS is not trans, but CS is a virilised male who competed against females so what's the difference? I'm not surprised that they want to keep a distance from that shit show as it can't help them at all, but there really isn't any logically.