Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

Are you really surprised that the ‘Sex and Gender’ FWR board has honed in on your use of ‘sex’, @DadJoke?

No.

Are you denying that they have been doing so without our consent?

And that this is becoming a bigger problem now that more of them are doing it?

Gosh, a scold-and-run. Never seen that before.

Here are some philosophical questions for you to ponder.

extract

6) are people who are only attracted to others of the same sex morally obligated to feel ashamed of this?

7a) if penises are female genitals, why do trans women experience physical dysphoria?

7b) why is sex reassignment surgery called ‘gender affirmation surgery’?

7c) why do we encourage surgery rather than encouraging trans people to make peace with their bodies and overcome the cissexism they’ve internalized that tells them that their genitals don’t match their gender?

8a) in a world without gender (ie. if everybody identified as agender), would gay people cease to exist? would gay culture cease to exist? if not, why not?

8b) if so, would this be a favourable outcome?

9a) are all women born without genital preferences? is an interest in penises a part of tabula rasa female existence?

9b) if we examine the root of our repulsion towards penises and, indeed, all male sex characteristics, is the correct answer that deep down, we were attracted to them all along? is that the conclusion we are supposed to come to?
9c) if not, what is?
10a) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through exploration of gender theory and re-framing of her perceptions of what it means to be a man or woman, would this be an appropriate response?

10b) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through damaging her opportunities to access employment, housing, and social support networks as a response to non-compliance, would this be an appropriate response?

10c) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through re-education at a dedicated facility, would this be an appropriate response?

10d) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through aversion therapy — inducing, for example, intense self-loathing and worthlessness in response to undesirable feelings– would this be an appropriate response?

10e) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through electroshock therapy, would this be an appropriate response?

10f) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through internment followed by six months of brothel work followed by murder, would this be an appropriate response?

10g) if not, why not?
Unanswered/Unanswerable (alt title:agenda)

Transgender people have the right to use the bathrooms which match their gender identity because of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. What you think transgender people are has no bearing on this right.

In order to use bathrooms which match their gender identity they would have to build them first, because no such thing exists.

What you mean is single sex spaces for the opposite sex.

The opposite sex never consented to this. Did they?

Well, maybe you should take a little time to read all the studies evidencing the role of societal prejudice on trans people's poor mental health.

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=prejudice+trans+mental+health&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&t=1698246361350&u=%23p%3DRt_99FPqWkYJ

Here's a systematic review of some of the quantitative studies on this.

Transgender people have the right to use the bathrooms which match their gender identity because of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

No. This is not a right they have.

"societal prejudice on trans people's poor mental health."

What, like women saying "No, we didn't consent to you taking our words, spaces, redefining us as backwards sex stereotypes and demanding we give up our rights and spaces and then screaming that we're bigots and threatening us with violence, job losses and social shaming if we dare to object?"

That's not "prejudice". It's a demand to maintain OUR basic democratic rights.

Not something you have a great deal of understanding of, clearly.

Also, please stop with the emotional blackmail. A population with a far higher than average pre-existing incidence of anxiety and depression (not to mention narcissism) are not "caused" to feel bad by women saying no to them, and having to accept that other people in a diverse society get to have rights and freedoms too. Including the right to personal boundaries, to freedom of belief and association (both of which are fundamental human rights, as per the Human Rights Act), and the right to say no.

Oh, and btw. The Equality Act does NOT state that those who identify as transgender get to use whichever facilities they choose. In fact, its exceptions specifically point out that single sex services CAN exclude TW if it is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

Bollocks have female transitioners been using men's toilets for decades. Bollocks. I have known trans people, many of them female, since my own teens, and they always used to be highly aware of their own vulnerability around men when partially undressed to urinate.

They all feared corrective rape from men. It's only in the last few years that people have started cheering on women into the men's.

Amazing that the men's is simultaneously now held to be safe for 6 stone trans-identifying female teens and unsafe for 15 stone trans-identifying middle-aged men. Amazing.

I hope they're a little more rigorous than the survey of 26 self-selecting participants that gets constantly wheeled out to support the claim that over 40% of trans people have attempted suicide.

Just stop with the emotional manipulation.

Women should not have to just capitulate and accept male people in their single sex spaces and sports because if they don't, those male people will be very sad and some of them might even harm themselves.

That kind of bullshit is on a par with your abusive boyfriend saying "If you leave me I will kill myself."

Not on.

Women are not trans people's support animals, or members of the chorus in the opera of a trans person's life.

As for trans identifying teenagers, I suspect their mental health would improve drastically if they spent more time playing sports or musical instruments, volunteering or, you know, just doing their homework, and less time contemplating their gender identities, trying on different pronouns and watching videos on Tiktok about the horror of being misgendered.

For those suffering from genuine dysphoria, what they need is exploratory talk therapy to get to the bottom of why they feel so unhappy, not puberty blockers and binders. Unfortunately the sort of therapy they need is probably going to be made illegal.

Again, some more twisting of language and turning things into something they weren't.
Since when is being confused about why someone would support something, "not accepting that other people have differing opinions"???

I fully accept that there's a myriad of the LGBT population joining in with Palestine marches, it doesn't mean I understand it.

Not understanding why someone would support something that can/will cause that person harm, is not being unable to accept their differing views.
It's being absolute flummoxed that the sheep has invited the wolf round for a sleepover!

(PSA, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with standing with Palestine, frankly I take no sides especially not publicly.
But I do think there's something to be said about anti-LGBT sentiment.
I saw a video of someone ripping a Pride flag out of someone's hand and running off, stamping it into the ground.
"Queers" may stand with Palestine, but Palestine doesn't seem to stand with you...)

Women should not have to just capitulate and accept male people in their single sex spaces and sports because if they don't, those male people will be very sad and some of them might even harm themselves.

That kind of bullshit is on a par with your abusive boyfriend saying "If you leave me I will kill myself."

Not on.

Women are not trans people's support animals, or members of the chorus in the opera of a trans person's life.

This. Hope that's clear to genderists. Women in the majority do not buy into this ideology in the way many trans rights activists think we should.

Dadjoke, it is clearer and clearer with every si gle piece of tosh you post that you are a Johnny-come-lately. A middle-aged centrist dad with no life experience of women's lives in general, and certainly no experience of the lives of teenage girls with gender or sex dysphoria. Nevertheless you feel.entitled to assume you have insights to offer. You do not. You are getting all your talking points off the net, and it's all content written post-2015. Moreover, all content focused on the wishes of male transitioners, which always presumes the wishes of female transitioners mirror male interests.

They don't. The asymmetrical nature of male and female lives is kind of a Big Thing.

Oh, and you know another reason the female transitioners I know used female toilets or single-occupancy unisex?

Because they needed toilets to sit down.

We use toilets with our sexed bodies.

This is why women's toilets don't have urinals.

What you'll find is that trans people's suicides often aren't reported in media, especially young trans people - this is a deliberate strategy in an attempt to prevent copycat incidents from similarly vulnerable young people, and is understandable, but it also means that people are not aware of these issues and inaccurately underplay them because of this lack of awareness. Schools also discourage pupils from posting on Facebook on these occasions out of the same concern re copycat incidents.

What you also see is that the gender identity of young trans people is often not accurately recorded in death, as their closest family generally indicate a preference that they are recorded as their birth sex. Often a young trans person's friends will be more accepting of their identity than family, and the trans person will lead a double life to a degree, but it isn't these friends who are registering the death and can influence how the gender of that person is recorded, it is the parents.

Trans issues are generally downplayed at these times out of shame, or a sense that the young person has been failed. So what you have then is a death certificate that matches the birth certificate, and no evidence of a young dead trans person, but that does not generally represent the likely wishes of that young person. And that enables people to make inaccurate claims that suicide / suicide attempts is not an issue for trans people, - if their trans status is not recorded in death of course there is poor evidence for it, that doesn't mean it is not happening.

Oh look, someone else who’s not a lesbian telling lesbians what their boundaries should be.

Again with the ridiculous and coercive emotional blackmail. You need to stop. It's not true, and as MargotBamborough points out, is the equivalent of the abusive boyfriend saying "If you don't do what I want, I'll kill myself and it'll all be YOUR fault."

Nobody dies because women stood up for their CURRENT legal rights, continued disagreeing with sex stereotypes despite genderist footstamping, refused to deny the experiences of their own lives and retained longstanding feminist views or dared to say no to controlling, manipulative people demanding to redefine them and take their rights away without discussion or consent.

The answer is NO. You're going to have to get used to it, I'm afraid. Emotional blackmail wont work.

Any chance of actually answering those outstanding questions, btw? It's mighty strange, but they STILL don't seem to have been answered.

What do you think comes first; the poor mental health or the gender dysphoria?

Teenage mental health is a massive issue, and on the increase. It seems to make sense to me that some desperately unhappy teens may conclude that they are in the wrong body, and that completely changing their identity might be the answer to all of their problems. It might give an answer to why they don't feel like they fit in with their peers, and why they feel ill at ease with their body, despite this being a very common feeling during puberty. Being trans also can give them a subculture to belong to, in a world where these things are not as common. (Where are all the goths and punks and emos and skinheads these days?)

In other words, correllation is not causation, and poor mental health in trans identifying people is not proof that they feel that way as a result of being trans and the associated experience. I agree that anyone who is struggling should have access to counselling and support.

@DadJoke

It's not novel, it's baked into the EA2010 in the form of gender reassignment. Conflicting rights are common. and the law handles them. These are legislated rights. Not the strawman of "being treated as what you identify with" in general. There are no rights associated with "identifying" as anything else.

Firstly, the EA2010 isn't an old piece of legislation is it? It's a pretty new piece of law yes?

Secondly, this started out as about transsexuals and medical transition, with the ECHR case. In very recent times, this has morphed into a demand for "self ID" and "trans women are women", and, "it's not a mental health condition", "trans rights are human rights".

So yes, we are talking about a radical new basis on which to claim "rights". Doesn't matter if it's in a recent piece of legislation to whatever degree. That doesn't stop it being "radical" or "new" as a principle.

As for "conflicting rights", it's for the advocates of controversial rights claims to support them yes? You can't just appeal to it being in the law. So what? On what grounds should it be in the law in the first place? You can't say, "trans rights are human rights", unless there is some underlying good justification for the principle.

It's a strawman to bring up identifying as other things? And why is that?

You can show that identifying as one type of thing makes good sense, but self identifying your racial identity is clearly way different?

What do you think comes first; the poor mental health or the gender dysphoria?

We probably will never know, given how resistant TRAs are to any explorations of causes and effects.

And where exactly can we 'find' and 'see' these facts? Do you have any sources?

A previous poster described how her teenage daughter self-identified through various gender phases, including non-binary before quietly dropping it. This is why we don't put "gender identity" on death certificates.

@JaneGainsborough
I'm bisexual, I like the smell, taste and look of the genitals of the person I fancy. The smell, taste and look of a woman is very different to that of a man. I wouldn't have a crush on a trans person because I want that experience to be as natural as possible. But I think that 30 years ago, I might've had a different view.