Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

Once again, I find myself lamenting the fact that none of this legislation saw fit to actually try to define "gender".

What exactly is it that is being "reassigned"?

It's a very good question

I don't think @DadJoke care's one iota about women's consent.

You've got that right. If he cared about women, he'd consider our feelings of boundary violation and being dismissed and disrespected even if he thought we were mistaken. He doesn't care about women. He's zealous in his ideology.

I would really love to hear @DadJoke's opinion about this.

I on the other hand have heard Dadjoke's unimpressive arguments many times and am not remotely interested in what he thinks about anything.

This isn't a 'right', don't be daft.

Men don't have a 'right' to use women's changing rooms if they feel like it.

Wait, wait, I know this one!

Is it Femininintineinity?

I expect @DadJoke would argue that the people we are referring to are not men.

He would. And he is wrong. Legally, in most cases, they are unequivocally men. The ones with GRCs have "changed their gender" which confers the right to be treated as their "acquired gender" whatever that is, for nearly all purposes. However they can still be excluded on the grounds of single sex, if proportionate means to a legitimate aim.

Each to their own opinions etc, but it's a tad annoying when one person (presumably a lesbian herself) seeks to speak for everyone. Even if it is just via her T shirt.

I think part of the problem is that we cannot even assume the wearer is a lesbian.

A woman who is attracted to feminine presenting people of either sex, i.e. women and trans women, is not a lesbian. She is a bisexual with a preference for people who present in a feminine way. It's not really on for her to be defining herself as a lesbian, much less claiming to speak on behalf of lesbians.

If the word "lesbian" now means:

females attracted to other females,
and males attracted to females,
and males attracted to other males

surely we can all agree it's not particularly useful as a word anymore?

Can we also agree that the lack of clarity means that same-sex attracted females are disadvantaged because they can't distinguish their sexuality precisely?

So isn't a reasonable solution to find new words for trans-identifying males to use? It would surely be helpful for there to be specific terms to highlight if they are attracted to females, gay males, or other trans-identifying males. Just like menus now specify between vegetarian/vegan.

Is anyone actually disadvantaged by this additional clarity in language? Seriously, what are the arguments against this?

And a "butch" to believers in gender identity ideology, is a masculine presenting person of either sex attracted to people of either sex who identify as women.

Can we also agree that the lack of clarity means that same-sex attracted females are disadvantaged because they can't distinguish their sexuality precisely?

I'd be interested to hear any rationale why this is not the case.

You forgot females attracted to males. They're also included.

Basically anyone can be a lesbian as long as neither they nor their partner has both a penis and he/him pronouns.

It is a right they have, and they do.

If you dispute that transgender people have been using the bathrooms associates with their gender for decades, and that you want to stop them, I have a bridge to sell you.

Is it any wonder that her trans friends emotional problems haven't disappeared when we live in a world where it is considered a perfectly reasonable question to ask why someone would want to stand against transphobia, as per the OP's initial post?

As a woman, and previously a girl who has been using women's loos for nearly 5 decades, where presumably you haven't, DadJoke, I do very much dispute this foundational assertion.

Once again, there is no such thing as a bathroom associated with any kind of gender, because gender is completely imaginary.

There have just been a small number of people using spaces for the opposite sex without consent for years, which is becoming a bigger problem now an increasing number of people are identifying as trans.

Males have never had the "right" to use female spaces.

I think @DadJoke is on a wind up, bathrooms are based on sex not 'gender'! @DadJoke do you really not understand that?

No, I don't believe that what gets posted on Mumsnet is even remotely likely to be a contributing factor in trans identifying teenagers' emotional distress.

If you dispute that transgender people have been using the bathrooms associates with their gender for decades, and that you want to stop them, I have a bridge to sell you.

Of course you have a bridge available to sell. You were sold one some time ago.

👏👏👏

We're still awaiting answers to basic questions, I see.

Strange. Almost like some people really, REALLY don't want to, or simply don't have the capacity to answer them. I wonder why. They're really not difficult at all.

You seem to have fixated on my use of the word "sex."

Are you denying that, for decades, trans women have used the women's bathrooms, and that trans men have used men's bathrooms?