Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

You are correct, yes, they have been violating boundaries and consent for many years now.

What you'll find is that trans people's suicides often aren't reported in media, especially young trans people

I've read the national clinical inquiry report into all child suicides, which covered all children and young people suicides in a given year a few years ago, and the most common antecedents of this are very clear. Mental health problems and bereavement. If "trans identity" has come out of nowhere now to be a significant cause of child suicide, something I've seen zero evidence of, I agree that level of rapid onset social contagion like behaviour should be investigated.

No, mate. I know they have. I met one masturbating at the sinks in the ladies' toilet when I was seventeen.

That experience partly informs my certainty that males should not be in women's spaces - no matter if he is in a wig and dress and lipstick.

Any chance of actually answering those outstanding questions, btw? It's mighty strange, but they STILL don't seem to have been answered.

Isn't it just. The usual suspects have come to push their own hobby horses which are only tangentially related to the subject of this thread, while relevant questions remain unanswered.

Good post.

If we are talking about bullying of trans people, then yes, that's obviously wrong, and it could indeed contribute to poor mental health for trans people, and the people that bully others are morally blameworthy.

If we are talking about not accepting them as being a real woman, or real man, then that isn't a "prejudice". It could indeed contribute to poor mental health for trans people perhaps, (that they aren't accepted in the way that they want to be), but it isn't a case where people would be morally blameworthy for that. Rather, it's just an unrealistic expectation.

That something "contributes" in some sort of way doesn't automatically make it blameworthy. You would need to argue that rhetoric is dishonest, or reckless, or deliberately inciting hate. Something like that.

Maybe some on the gender critical side may cross the line? You can make that argument if you want. But look at trans-activism for their rhetoric.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

'If you have met the conditions set out above and have established a separate or
single-sex service, you should consider your approach to trans people’s use of
the service. In considering your approach and when taking decisions you must
meet the conditions set out under the gender reassignment provisions.

Under these provisions, your approach must be a proportionate means of
achieving a legitimate aim. This will depend upon the nature of the service and
may link to the reason the separate or single-sex service is needed. For
example, a legitimate aim could be the privacy and dignity of others. You must
then show that your action is a proportionate way to achieve that aim. This
requires that you balance the impact upon all service users.

Example: A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual
assault. The organisers do not allow trans women to attend as they judge that
the clients who attend the group session are likely to be traumatised by the
presence of a person who is biologically male.

Example: A domestic abuse refuge offers emergency accommodation to female
survivors. Feedback from survivors indicates that they would feel uncomfortable
sharing accommodation with trans women for reasons of trauma and safety. The
provider decides to exclude trans women from the refuge. It compiles a list of
alternative sources of support in the local area which can be provided to trans
women who approach the centre for help.

Example: A leisure centre introduces some female only fitness classes. It
decides to exclude trans women because of the degree of physical contact
involved in such classes.

Example: A gym has separate-sex communal changing rooms. There is concern
about the safety and dignity of trans men changing in an open plan environment.

The gym therefore decides to introduce an additional gender-neutral changing
room with self-contained units.

Separate and single-sex service providers: a guide on the Equality Act sex and gender reassignment exceptions

Example: A small cafe with limited space and facilities for public use has
separate lockable, self-contained male and female toilets with hand basins in
single units. To ensure they are fully inclusive, and to make the most effective
use of the available facilities, the cafe decides to make them all gender neutral.

Example: A community centre has separate male and female toilets. It conducts
a survey in which some service users say that they would not use the centre if
the toilets were open to members of the opposite biological sex, for reasons of
privacy and dignity or because of their religious belief. It decides to introduce an
additional gender-neutral toilet. It puts up signs telling all users that they may use either the toilet for their biological sex or to use the gender neutral toilet if they feel more comfortable doing so.

If the toilets you provide for service users are also used as staff toilets, you will
also need to take account of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare)
Regulations 1992 which require employers to provide a certain number of toilets
and to provide separate toilet and washing facilities for men and women in some circumstances. Guidance can be found on the Health and Safety Executive
website.

Separate and single-sex service providers: taking decisions

When taking decisions, you should consider the following:

1. Treat all individuals with dignity and respect

When making and applying decisions, treat all individuals with dignity and
respect.

1. Be aware that trans people may need access to services relating to their

biological sex.

Example: A trans man is refused an appointment for breast screening and is told
that screening is provided for females only. This is likely to be unlawful.
In such cases, discuss with the trans person the best way to enable them to
access the service that meets their needs.'

Always good to reread the guidance from EHRC on the Equality Act exemptions.

Noting they specifically include toilets and changing rooms.

It's very clear that these are permitted single sex exemptions.

Thanks Arabella!

People with the protected characteristic of gender reassigment can be excluded from same-sex spaces if it's for a legtimate and proportionate reason on a case-by-case basis. This has never applied to bathrooms or changing rooms. The very few cases which address this have found in favour of transgender people. Note - the obligation is on the service provider to demonstrate this legitimate and proportionate reason if challenged.

This has never applied to bathrooms or changing rooms.

Bathrooms? Again, you're reciting post-2015 US-based web content with nary a thought.

What public toilet has a bath in it? You mean toilets.

And of course it is proportionate that women have female-only areas when undressing. What kind of male comes on a feminism forum and tells women it is not "legitimate" for us to have privacy when undressing?

What kind of male sees it as an imposition on women's part if we won't let him see us naked?

People with the protected characteristic of gender reassigment can be excluded from same-sex spaces if it's for a legtimate and proportionate reason on a case-by-case basis. This has never applied to bathrooms or changing rooms. The very few cases which address this have found in favour of transgender people.

The few there are are all cases in the lower courts where in at least one case the defendant never turned up. They haven't set any kind of legal precedent. If you bothered to read @ArabellaScott's helpful post you will see that both toilets and changing rooms are given as examples of when a space could potentially exclude males even when they identify as women.

Here they are again.

And of course it is proportionate that women have female-only areas when undressing. What kind of male comes on a feminism forum and tells women it is not "legitimate" for us to have privacy when undressing?

*What kind of male sees it as an imposition on women's part if we won't let him see us naked?^

It is always quite telling, isn't it?

Trans women use women's bathrooms and have done for decades.

Trans men use men's bathrooms and have done for decades.

This is not in dispute.

Gender critical people (not women in general) want to remove those rights. You are one of them.

Well some transowmen may use women's toilets but sone most certainly do not

Assuming all transgender women act the same, believe the same ... well it's the kind of stereotyping behaviour I'd expect from a gender supporter

Please engage with the points made re women's need for single sex spaces. You are not correct, in anything that you say.

A tiny number of people identified as the opposite sex have used the spaces of that sex until a few years ago. This is a new thing, outside very particular circumstances.

It is perfectly legitimate for women to have female only spaces when undressing.

Males do no have A RIGHT to use single sex spaces designated for females.

Squatters rights do not apply to the ladies lavatory!

You missed my post, mate. It says toilets and changing rooms right there. Very clear.

Actually it has been disputed.

@DadJoke just a hunch, do you ever pretend to be a police officer in your spare time?

@Worriedmum159

I've copied out the relevant guidance from the EHRC on the Equality Act. It explains very clearly that transwomen can be excluded from women's refuges, meetings, toilets and changing rooms, using these exact instances as examples.

Everyone else is able to read it, I presume, even if DadJoke seems to be struggling.

'Some men have always ignored women's boundaries and invaded women's spaces' isn't really a mic drop, either.

We know, mate. We bloody know.

I just want actual women’s rights, the ones in the EQ10 to be properly enforced.

If you have, or ever have had, a penis, stay out.

Absolutely sick of the chauvinistic entitlement of penis-people.

Males with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ do not have the protected characteristic of ‘female’.