Page 36 | Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 6

ickky · 2023-10-16T15:00:26+00:00

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750) You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from Email watfordet@justice.gov.uk Header should read URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021 Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal. The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process. Abbreviations JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C) OU - The Open University, Respondent (R) J - Regional Employment Judge Young P - Panel or panel member BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R OU Departments & Networks: HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology KMi - Knowledge Media Institute GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network OU witnesses PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22 IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23 CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23 LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21 PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History ^KS - Kevin Shakesheff^. PVC for Research and Innovation DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21 CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22 SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22 CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance Witness for JP: SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets TT coverage so far - [[https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university]] Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download) https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1 Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1 Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3 Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4 Thread 5 [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5]]

mumsandaunties · 18/10/2023 07:09

Chapeau @Froodwithatowel, I'd agree with you entirely. Unfortunately the Canadian media aren't calling this out....(yet?).

LargeSquareRock · 18/10/2023 07:15

Darth Vader’s Imperial March will be playing in my head when Deb Drake finally makes her appearance.

RocketPanda · 18/10/2023 07:38

Froodwithatowel · 17/10/2023 22:33

And yet the behaviour is exactly how the First Nations people were treated. It is pure colonialism.

'Right you lot, your betters have arrived, we're much more enlightened than you old and backward twits, so stop using your language, your words are crap and you have to use ours. Pray to our gods, at our altars, no other beliefs permitted, they're sinful and evil and make you bad people who don't deserve rights or equality with us who know best. Your culture and traditions and spaces and groups will all have to go, we'll take them all over, get rid of the bits we don't like or that conflict with our superior knowledge, and we'll run them so you learn how to do things right and better. Obviously we will lead and set all policies, and we'll tell you what your needs are, we know better than you anyway. We'll educate your children not to listen to or trust you and any of your old nonsense and only to believe what we believe, and in a generation we'll have you all wiped out and assimilated. And if you don't come quietly, we have police, brutality, discrimination, prisons and exclusion, you'll lose your job and your bank account. But we'll tell you endlessly how kind and wonderful and loving we are while we do this to you, and if you weren't so backward and beneath us, you'd understand.'

What. Is. The. Difference?

Seriously?

God is Love shouted the last lot. #Bekind shout this lot. As they batter their way over other people's lives.

Edited

Show quote history

Funnily enough this is what happened to Ireland and the government are trying to present as the wokiest country ever. I think there's a lot of weight in that theory.

pronounsbundlebundle · 18/10/2023 07:57

Froodwithatowel · 17/10/2023 22:33

And yet the behaviour is exactly how the First Nations people were treated. It is pure colonialism.

'Right you lot, your betters have arrived, we're much more enlightened than you old and backward twits, so stop using your language, your words are crap and you have to use ours. Pray to our gods, at our altars, no other beliefs permitted, they're sinful and evil and make you bad people who don't deserve rights or equality with us who know best. Your culture and traditions and spaces and groups will all have to go, we'll take them all over, get rid of the bits we don't like or that conflict with our superior knowledge, and we'll run them so you learn how to do things right and better. Obviously we will lead and set all policies, and we'll tell you what your needs are, we know better than you anyway. We'll educate your children not to listen to or trust you and any of your old nonsense and only to believe what we believe, and in a generation we'll have you all wiped out and assimilated. And if you don't come quietly, we have police, brutality, discrimination, prisons and exclusion, you'll lose your job and your bank account. But we'll tell you endlessly how kind and wonderful and loving we are while we do this to you, and if you weren't so backward and beneath us, you'd understand.'

What. Is. The. Difference?

Seriously?

God is Love shouted the last lot. #Bekind shout this lot. As they batter their way over other people's lives.

Edited

Show quote history

Great post.

What's very clear through this tribunal is that they purport to 'be kind' to trans and non-binary people but when faced with a lesbian's tears they're quite willing, keen even, to twist the knife. LW yesterday - even when in a PUBLIC COURT - had to snidely turn BC's commentary about JP crying into 'sniffling into a tissue'. What a horrible, horrible person. The opposite of kind. Actions speak louder than words.

What these people are also doing is deliberately removing exactly the research that may be important for trans people long term regarding the side effects of medical transition. If researching the reality of cross sex hormones / SRS on sexed bodies carries such a high professional cost, no-ones going to do it. They're not even kind to trans people, they're simply treading on them to get to power.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/10/2023 08:03

I am wondering if all the amnesia about who wrote The Letter is to hide the fact that Drake was involved

Ameanstreakamilewide · 18/10/2023 08:05

Well, Dr Deb is just the best ever, and the best manager in the whole world forever and ever.

Amen. 🙏

So, it wouldn't surprise me if they were all covering up for her, in an oblique way.

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/10/2023 08:15

LargeSquareRock · 18/10/2023 07:15

Darth Vader’s Imperial March will be playing in my head when Deb Drake finally makes her appearance.

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/10/2023 08:17

I think the amnesia is because they have legal advice that the letter was unacceptable so now no one wants to agree that they wrote it. And in fact not only did they not write it but they can't even remember why they signed it.

Unfortunately for them all HBC remembered writing it with others - the panel are not daft they can draw their own conclusions

InvisibleDragon · 18/10/2023 08:31

The DD is the best manager ever rhetoric is strongly reminding me of how much loyalty GIDS employees had to Polly Charmichael. I'm starting to wonder if this sort of cult of personality is a common feature of this type of dysfunctional organisational culture?

RocketPanda · 18/10/2023 08:31

Ummmmm @ickky wakey wakey, I fear we may fill a couple of threads today.

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/10/2023 08:33

Froodwithatowel · 17/10/2023 22:33

And yet the behaviour is exactly how the First Nations people were treated. It is pure colonialism.

'Right you lot, your betters have arrived, we're much more enlightened than you old and backward twits, so stop using your language, your words are crap and you have to use ours. Pray to our gods, at our altars, no other beliefs permitted, they're sinful and evil and make you bad people who don't deserve rights or equality with us who know best. Your culture and traditions and spaces and groups will all have to go, we'll take them all over, get rid of the bits we don't like or that conflict with our superior knowledge, and we'll run them so you learn how to do things right and better. Obviously we will lead and set all policies, and we'll tell you what your needs are, we know better than you anyway. We'll educate your children not to listen to or trust you and any of your old nonsense and only to believe what we believe, and in a generation we'll have you all wiped out and assimilated. And if you don't come quietly, we have police, brutality, discrimination, prisons and exclusion, you'll lose your job and your bank account. But we'll tell you endlessly how kind and wonderful and loving we are while we do this to you, and if you weren't so backward and beneath us, you'd understand.'

What. Is. The. Difference?

Seriously?

God is Love shouted the last lot. #Bekind shout this lot. As they batter their way over other people's lives.

Edited

Show quote history

I'm a practising Christian and licensed minister, and can't believe how this didn't strike me before - but you are right. It is exactly how many "primitive" peoples were treated by colonial invaders .

A DERAIL - TOTALLY OFF TOPIC BUT I NEED A RANT. DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO
At the moment I am just struck with horror by the way the CofE (no idea how other denominations are doing things) is pushing the "inclusivity" and TWAW. I have had an argument with our curate whose opinion was "Well' if a bloke has had his bollocks off he certainly isn't a man, is he?". My response to this was - "Yes he is - he's a eunuch, but he's still a man." I pointed out to him that he has a family of little girls and any one of them could find herself in the toilet, or swimming baths changing room with a fully intact adult male and not be able to do a thing about it. He was under the impression that all of these men had had surgery - I soon shattered that illusion and told him that about 98% of them don't do ANYTHING to their own bodies. He didn't believe me. I gave him a few names etc to put into search engines - in his defence, I think he has had a good google, because he has done a complete volte face now he knows the truth (I have carefully not reminded him of his previous stance).

Our priest, however is all for "inclusivity". When I asked what happened to people who would be pushed out if we included some others to the degree that they demanded to be included, priest just said it wouldn't happen. It isn't possible, apparently, for. one group's demands to clash against another's needs because of "reasons."* Our Mothers' Union has been told to welcome men. (Though as far as I am aware, none have joined.) Most of the women aren't happy with this, but this is a national ruling and they feel they can't do anything about it.

*Priest was a barrister in previous pre-call life. Verbally very cunning and can run rings round the lot of us. I try just to stick to the point and repeat myself but priest has a politician's trick of introducing an apparently connected, but in actuality nowhere associated, topic to get people off the topic under discussion. PCC meetings are a joy .

I'm hoping to pick up tips for dealing with this type of obfuscation from Ben.

RANT OVER - AS YOU WERE.

I’m completely outclassed by every commenter on this thread.

Not by me you aren't @WrensAreAllDinosaurs - the intellect and accumulated knowledge on here makes me feel that I'm sitting on the table with the crayons because I can't handle a pen.

And you are absolutely right - carefully appropriating minor things - and only later is it revealed just how major these appropriations are.

Mr Viper keeps saying "But why do women support this? There are women in that crowd of TRAs abusing other women! What do they do that? Can't they see what they're doing?"

And I could weep, because he's right and I really have no answer.

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/10/2023 08:36

LargeSquareRock · 18/10/2023 07:15

Darth Vader’s Imperial March will be playing in my head when Deb Drake finally makes her appearance.

Mine, too, now!

😂

AlisonDonut · 18/10/2023 08:40

LargeSquareRock · 18/10/2023 07:15

Darth Vader’s Imperial March will be playing in my head when Deb Drake finally makes her appearance.

Death Grip Deb Drake?

RocketPanda · 18/10/2023 08:40

Debbie I'm going to love you forever
And always have your back in Watford
As long as these terfs are still talking about the letter
I'll have amnesia and remember not a thing

Sisterpita · 18/10/2023 08:58

I haven’t read all the witness statements but reflecting back we have not heard one credible piece of evidence that Jo is transphobic or manifested her belief in an in appropriate or discriminatory manner.

Their evidence is she signed the open letter, the savage minds pod cast and set up the GCRN.

Jo’s witness is not GC and disagrees with her views, but was appalled at Jo’s treatment. Showing you can disagree without resorting to the behaviour of OU staff.

If Jo does not win this surely it has to be on a technical
point of law and not the evidence.

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/10/2023 09:01

I don't understand how Jo signing an open letter is transphobic but over 300 of her colleagues signing one decrying her is fine and dandy.

Well of course I do understand, but I wonder what the panel thinks

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 18/10/2023 09:07

Morning all. Dialling in from another location today so fingers crossed it all works.

Are the Friday submissions public? I’d love to see/hear how BC will draw together the various threads from the evidence to point out the unequal treatment. JM’s will be interesting too, to understand exactly what the defence position is. I imagine JM will be seeing exactly where BC is headed so will be writing hers to address the points she thinks he’s going to make. Very interesting how the tactics will play out from a legal perspective.

pronounsbundlebundle · 18/10/2023 09:14

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/10/2023 08:33

I'm a practising Christian and licensed minister, and can't believe how this didn't strike me before - but you are right. It is exactly how many "primitive" peoples were treated by colonial invaders .

A DERAIL - TOTALLY OFF TOPIC BUT I NEED A RANT. DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO
At the moment I am just struck with horror by the way the CofE (no idea how other denominations are doing things) is pushing the "inclusivity" and TWAW. I have had an argument with our curate whose opinion was "Well' if a bloke has had his bollocks off he certainly isn't a man, is he?". My response to this was - "Yes he is - he's a eunuch, but he's still a man." I pointed out to him that he has a family of little girls and any one of them could find herself in the toilet, or swimming baths changing room with a fully intact adult male and not be able to do a thing about it. He was under the impression that all of these men had had surgery - I soon shattered that illusion and told him that about 98% of them don't do ANYTHING to their own bodies. He didn't believe me. I gave him a few names etc to put into search engines - in his defence, I think he has had a good google, because he has done a complete volte face now he knows the truth (I have carefully not reminded him of his previous stance).

Our priest, however is all for "inclusivity". When I asked what happened to people who would be pushed out if we included some others to the degree that they demanded to be included, priest just said it wouldn't happen. It isn't possible, apparently, for. one group's demands to clash against another's needs because of "reasons."* Our Mothers' Union has been told to welcome men. (Though as far as I am aware, none have joined.) Most of the women aren't happy with this, but this is a national ruling and they feel they can't do anything about it.

*Priest was a barrister in previous pre-call life. Verbally very cunning and can run rings round the lot of us. I try just to stick to the point and repeat myself but priest has a politician's trick of introducing an apparently connected, but in actuality nowhere associated, topic to get people off the topic under discussion. PCC meetings are a joy .

I'm hoping to pick up tips for dealing with this type of obfuscation from Ben.

RANT OVER - AS YOU WERE.

I’m completely outclassed by every commenter on this thread.

Not by me you aren't @WrensAreAllDinosaurs - the intellect and accumulated knowledge on here makes me feel that I'm sitting on the table with the crayons because I can't handle a pen.

And you are absolutely right - carefully appropriating minor things - and only later is it revealed just how major these appropriations are.

Mr Viper keeps saying "But why do women support this? There are women in that crowd of TRAs abusing other women! What do they do that? Can't they see what they're doing?"

And I could weep, because he's right and I really have no answer.

Show quote history

Honestly, I think it's a way to have power. I think that's it. These people don't really care about trans people - what they want is power over other people. I.e. they're bullies, and gender ideology is just a very convenient way to bully.

Some are swept up by it as we know many are when faced with bullies, but the people really pushing it? It's just a way to bully others. They enjoy making other people miserable, in this case JP.

LarkLane · 18/10/2023 09:20

Morning all. Just caught up with the posts. May The Force be with you Jo!

AutumnCrow · 18/10/2023 09:20

I think a lot of it's 'licence to assert power over', as well.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/10/2023 09:23

She's been built up so much by her colleagues she's bound to be an anticlimax now!

Sisterpita · 18/10/2023 09:24

@MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving yes the submissions are public so we can dial in on Friday.

Original poster

ickky · 18/10/2023 09:24

Morning everyone.

@LarkLane You need to say Maya the Forstater be with you.

@RocketPanda Don't worry, it's been ready since yesterday. 😁

@Froodwithatowel That is a great analysis.

OP posts:

Waitwhat23 · 18/10/2023 09:25

LargeSquareRock · 18/10/2023 07:15

Darth Vader’s Imperial March will be playing in my head when Deb Drake finally makes her appearance.

I will be humming it along with you.

As an aside, I was extremely tempted to have it as my wedding entrance song when I got married.

Waitwhat23 · 18/10/2023 09:33

Maya the Forstater be with you.

😆 Nicely done!