Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 5

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thank you. Thread 4 flew by.

@Farmageddon thanks for taking the time for me in your very interesting post. I'll have a look for that book, must be a copy online somewhere to buy. I'll also have a serious ponder over your last two paragraphs, they make great sense to me.

I will come back at some point. Thanks again. You've probably worked out I was an on their arse kid and education was my way out. I didn't get to university till late, back in time when women were women, and men were cool to be men in frocks

(That was a very long time ago though, and this ET is turning so many things from under the stones.)

I don't think I will ever look at a child's picture book in the same light ever again.........

<dies>

Another lurker dropping by to thank @ickky and others for the threads and commentary.

And especially to thank Jo, if you're looking. Your determination, clarity and professionalism are an inspiration. Gratitude to Ben Cooper and the legal team, too.

@Farmageddon I've tracked the book down, it's on the way, thanks so much.

PK identifies as a Catholic. The Catholic Church, OTOH, has very clear definitions of who is a Catholic at all and who is a Catholic in good standing with the Church. PK's opinion of whether or not he is a Catholic is not the last word on the matter. For some reason, PK has confused opinion with fact, at least in terms of his religious identity ...

You walked into the courtroom like you were walking into a mass
Your nose strategically placed right in the air
Your brain it was up your ass
You had one hand on the bundle, as you heard yourself spout gas
And all the students dreamed they'd be your network
They'd be your network and
You're so vain
You probably think this tribunal’s about you
You're so vain (you're such a pain)
I bet you think this case is about you
Don't you? DON’T YOU? ANSWER THE CUNTING QUESTION, DON’T YOU?

Nicola Snarey is a signatory to this Open Letter by Trans Activism UK, complaing about BBC 'Platforming Hate'.
https://laurakbuzz.com/2021/10/29/trans-activism-uks-finalised-open-letter-to-the-bbc/
As is a Finbarre Snarey at the same location

I read The Coddling of the American Mind a couple of years ago - it's a very interesting read. I'm not sure it's in print in the UK - I couldn't get it from my local library - but I was able to get it on my Kindle.

I'd just like to thank all posters yesterday and today for all their input. As others have said, the cross-examination of the OU witnesses has been jaw-dropping.

I also went back to university as a mature student, having not done that well in my school exams. That was only 10 years ago mind (seems like another world these days) so I'm not sure how I would cope these days with all this nonsense floating about the campus. I like to think I would have stood up and said something, but I'm afraid I'm a bit of a coward in real life with this stuff.

Which is why I truly admire women like Jo who put their heads above the parapet. They are helping all of us be more brave.

Not caught up on the latest TT yet. Do I mark NS as another one in the custard column?

I just googled “gender studies courses devon uk” thinking I could enrol on a course then just sit at the back flicking spitballs and laughing at the lecturer and saying stuff like “but this is all abject bollocks isn’t it?” until I’m expelled.

If I win the lottery that’s what I shall do.

Thank you, thank you - a few groans and lots of chortles as I caught up on the previous thread and this. It has taken me from Euston almost to Carlisle. Am heading to FiLiA for weekend. It was so good that I’ve only read two chapters of the latest Strike book.

Oh brava!!! I just fired up Carly Simon on Apple Music & read this in time to the music. Perfection! 👏

It would be really interesting to see the witnesses neuropsychological profiles. I expect their verbal scores to be way ahead of anything else ie they can talk and argue about things that make them sound like they know what they are talking about up to a point even if it’s rubbish.

Managed to attend again today, there was a good turn out in the morning and room was very full.

I noticed the person holding up "no audio" sign but you can't really draw attention to it in the room as observers. We don't get access to copies of statements either which sound like they have interesting info.

I really liked NS's volume, been straining with other witnesses mumbling at times. I also appreciated she did in the main part admit to her actions unlike LD who seemed to be vague and nonsensical.

Very big theme of highly educated people not really understanding or able to properly use Twitter or Facebook to find things they had posted/read.

Ah yes, people who use the word ‘listen’ when they mean ‘obey’. [Redflag]

I am the very model of a modern trans rights activist
The setting up of GC networks I robustly do resist
I’ll obfuscate and waffle and exhaust bewildered listeners
(By only ever championing the rights of poor trans prisoners)

My colleagues are too busy to look over others grievances
Because it’s more important to consider lived experiences
Refer to me as “they” or “them” because I am non binary
(I don’t fit in your greyscale world in all my rainbow finery)

I struggle with sporadic bouts of selective amnesia
A growing epidemic in the halls of academia
But notwithstanding, please do note my intellectual brilliance
(And maybe overlook my weak emotional resilience)

These three ideas are based on cognitive distortions—overgeneralizing, emotional reasoning, black-and-white thinking, and others—that are common among people who suffer from depression and anxiety. This may explain why today’s students display historically high levels of mental illness, self-harm, and suicide. The coddling of the American mind sounds really interesting thanks @Farmageddon - maybe we should write to the authors and ask them to do a UK academia follow up! 'The Emperor's new brain'?!!

This describes perfectly what I'm seeing - people like the TRAs we've seen on display today are creating an atmosphere for poor mental health among trans young people. It's just not rational or credible to think that anything Jo P has said equates to either 'hating' trans people or wanting them 'not to exist'. Nor that wanting to study the implications of sex differences on a range of aspects of life is in any way threatening to trans people. It can only be threatening if you've been groomed into a fragile mindset by the very people who claim to want to help you, and encouraged to base your entire life on other people validating you.

One of the most unbelievable things IMO was PK - an academic no less - making the wild assertion that a person killed in a refugee camp halfway around the world has some bearing on the way in which he can treat a colleague at work when that colleague has not mentioned and probably does not know about that one off incident (meanwhile, how many baby girls killed around the world every day because of their sex?). Just WTAF.

Mind you that little rage filled outburst by PK probably did Jo's case no end of good.

Magnificent, Drifters!

Hats off to @SoundTheSirens and @TwoDrifters2 . Beautifully done, but you can have these earworms back as soon as you like.

Excellent work there 2drifters

I hope Ben can get some rest and family time over the next couple of days.

There was real emotion in his voice when he talked about that, this morning.

Excellent TwoDrifters2 and SoundTheSirens 🤣