Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 5

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Brilliant lyrics above, thank you! The perfect accompaniment to my g&t.

I feel exhausted after today watching as an observer from a distance. I can only imagine how Jo and Ben feel. I hope they have some time to relax this weekend.

I salute you, TwoDrifters2. I broke into (in my head, only) song after 4 words!

I went to Uni decades ago and also know a fair few academics by virtue of being a bit middle class in a small Uni town.

The ones who earn their 'wage' (but I would observe that a high number in the Arts at one of the Unis seem to be contractors) are very dependent on getting decent reviews from their students (or their course loses funding and they lose an income). They are terrified about getting duff reviews/feedback from increasingly troubled/needy cohorts. Shutting kids in their rooms for 2 years thanks to Covid has accentuated this.

The tail wags the dog

pronounsbundlebundle

Indeed, the whole 'denying our existence' thing always baffled me.

Trans people exist - there they are, I can see them quite clearly. Just because I don't agree with their version of things doesn't mean they disappear somehow.

I believe what they actually mean is that we are failing to reinforce their fragile ego, or reflect their self image back at them - which is something else entirely.

But I suppose that doesn't sound as pithy, nor does it garner enough sympathy from well meaning bystanders.

Brava, this must be represented in the book/movie/play.
Also funny as fuck. Thanks, I just spat my tea out.

Ah cool, I hope you like it. He also has another book that I haven't read, but is on my list, called 'The Righteous Mind'. Actually I think you can find it online free in pdf form.

Anyway I heard Kerri Smyth talking about it - she used to be very embedded in woke stuff, and has emerged from the fog. She has done a few podcasts like Triggernometry and Peter Bohossian's podcast.

It's interesting to hear someone from the other side (or used to be) explain their thinking. Listening to some of her stuff made me realise that the vast majority of people pushing this type of stuff really think they are doing a good thing, but are sort of misguided. I think there is a small number of genuinely malevolent actors in all this, and a lot of well intentioned pawns who seem to be caught up in being seen as the good guys.

She mentioned that book as being a good way to explain some of her thought processes at the time, which I thought was interesting. Apparently it's about how we allow the emotional part of our brain to drive our decisions, (even though we think of ourselves as rational creatures) and then rationalise those emotional decisions logically afterwards.

Anyway, sorry for the derail!

Love it! 😁

As I said earlier on the previous thread, I think we could be said to be “denying the existence” of trans people by:

1. Thinking children and teenagers cannot consent to harming their bodies with puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgeries, potentially rendering them infertile and anorgasmic when they have little comprehension of what those things mean - aka denying the lived experience of these youngsters;
2. Believing that talking therapies, puberty and time will eventually alleviate any gender dysphoric suffering - aka “conversion therapy”;
3. Suspecting that the three-letter acronym which we must never mention on MN is behind the vast majority of heterosexual middle-aged men claiming trans identity - denying they have genuine gender dysphoria.

One thing which makes me sad is seeing the state of the OU. When I was a child it was a way for people to access higher education in ways that worked with caring responsibilities and work etc. And allowed people without school qualifications to get a degree.

And now this is what they will fight to defend. Word salad; obfuscation; disingenuous behaviour; and a complete lack of ability to think.

I taught on the vocational side of FE for some years in the last decade and this wasn’t a thing, except more recently when a very few learners - who clearly had additional issues, and weren’t engaging well with the reality related aspects of their study programmes - presented as trans/NB/genderfluid/whatever. Having moved into HE/Business, I’ve seen nothing of it apart from being aware that there are interested parties within the organisation who run various events and support groups. The students I see appear to be uninterested and unaffected.

What is it about these tribunals that bring out all the song writers, poem writers, humorous women?

You're all so bloody excellent.

I am the very model of a TRA misogynist,
A manifestly anti-woman gender ideologist.
I know the laws of Stonewall, and I quote them with impunity
On Twitter and in TikTok vids at every opportunity.
I know best on who’s the most oppressed in our society;
Cancelling the TERFs is how I demonstrate my piety.
I’m confident my views are on the correct side of history
Why women won’t agree with me is really quite a mystery!

Completely Brilliant! I’m seeing this being sung by Sideshow Bob

i wonder if next week will bring as entertaining witnesses as LD and PK. I mean, I know this is real life for Jo and fucking hard work for BC, but the sunlight!

Like others, I’m also warming to Judge Young, and wondering if the initial enquiry on pronouns was a box ticking exercise/courtesy as per new Judge training. She and the other panel members have asked some good questions. I wouldn’t go as far as other posters on saying she’s been peaked because I think she’s very professional and not giving much away, and for all we know she’s a raging terf in private anyway. But I think we can say her eyes and ears have been thoroughly opened to the GC perspective thanks to BC repeatedly breaking it down. I hope that if she has listened to the SM podcast then she will be able to see the cognitive dissonance in some of the evidence for herself.

i wonder if next week will bring as entertaining witnesses as LD and PK. I mean, I know this is real life for Jo and fucking hard work for BC, but the sunlight!

I'm trusting that Deborah Drake will be interesting for insight into certain perspectives.

I am enjoying the commentary and insights on MN but I don't consider it sunlight. The tribunal audiences are tiny and there's no MSM coverage and it's unlikely to to attract attention unless Triggernometry or similar manages to interview someone about what's happening.

This

Is

AMAZING!

The TRAs rely on talking over people and deliberately "not understanding" questions, while simultaneously patronising the questioner and throwing out endless meaningless waffle.

Getting them to answer a question or admit to anything at all is like nailing jelly to the wall.

Given the # of fine lyricists on this thread and we'll soon have our own version of Hamilton underway or, with good fortune, a fine Gilbert & Sullivan comic opera.

Thank you for bringing this thread (and those before it) to my attention yesterday. I hadn’t heard of Jo Phoenix before, although I have donated to similar causes. Laura Favaro being the last.

I’ve been riveted for two days. Thanks for all those that have given a blow by blow account of the tribunal, to which I have been equally amused and horrified.

Good luck Jo if you’re reading, and thank you Ben for being on the right side of history. 👏

I’ve had a glass of wine and no sleep for over a week (cheers kids) so this might not come out quite right but I’ve been thinking about this.

There’s a very vocal minority in the deaf community who are very opposed to any sort of intervention - hearing aids/cochlear implants/etc because they feel it’s an impingement/erasure on/of deaf culture.

and my eldest is probably autistic and I recognise the stuff that makes him him, is also the stuff that makes life hard for him. And I love him. And I want life to be easier for him.

So broadly I am pro advances in science and tech that ‘erase’ disability. But I can also recognise there are tensions there.

In the same way I would like to cure (‘erase’) dysphoria, but I can recognise there’s also a culture that exists alongside being/aligning with the trans community.

id love a pithy finishing line here but I’ve lost my own thread. Perhaps someone more eloquent might help me out?

Also, all the 'distress' of trans students about setting up a research network to research the reality of biological sex

I know. Grow tf up, or recognise university isn't the place for you.

Amazing lyrics @TwoDrifters2 and @SoundTheSirens 🍷

Also, all the 'distress' of trans students about setting up a research network to research the reality of biological sex

Just to return to this, the privileged little children being discussed should read Jo's witness statement that she's posted on her substack. Her "lived experience" as a young person is going to be substantially different to the average middle class student.

I can echo this.

I'm retired now, thank heavens, but the final three or four years of my working life were increasingly difficult. Students (who to be fair, were paying massive fees) felt that they should automatically pass the course - they'd "bought" their degree, effectively in their own minds.

There were always some who weren't prepared to research or argue their viewpoints, but would just download bits from here and there on the internet- often not even bothering to "match style" for the font, so that there were different styles of font as well as of writing throughout the essay.

Any criticism was taken personally - they were being picked on. They resented coming to lectures - why couldn't their friends just pick up a handout for them so they could take turns coming in and taking notes? Other students didn't have to get up for 9.00am lectures/ practicals etc, so why should they?

(The reason was that theirs was a medically based degree, and if they cocked something up they could really damage somebody - their housemate doing media studies might mess something up one day, but no-one would end up on life-support.)

Thankfully, although it was still in the minority when I retired, this idle, entitled cohort seemed to get bigger every year. I was glad to leave.

As I was with Allison Bailey, I'm struck by how she's managed to forge a successful career from traumatic beginnings.

Academic freedom to speak up for me, but not for thee.

I went looking for the views I wanted to find.