Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Quite. Academics should have performance reviews where they explain their research to a panel of educated people (some barristers included, please) and if the panel don't understand it and think it's Emperor's new Clothes, that research area isn't funded.

I know someone who's a professor in Maths. I don't understand the Maths at all, but he can explain the broad concepts to me. This should be a prerequisite for getting and keeping the job.

I only had lunch and there are another 300+ messages on here!

I think we should use the famous old SuperTramp song.
It's a good fit!

I had a history lecturer like him.

A nice guy, who certainly knew his subject, but couldn't answer a simple question about it, cos he'd immediately go off on a tangent about it.

I stopped asking questions in the end.

I have wondered how many threads this is going to run to.

Jon Pike article c not inc TW in women's rugby.

BC: it's a v good article if panel wanted to read it.

BC: JP summary - go for a) safety first, then b) fairness (not incl male advantage) then c) after that you can be as incl as poss. That's the approach, and you never get to c.

PK: Cogent and coherent

BC shows earlier comment that PK said it was a tawdry article.

PK: Tawdry was re TW as one word instead of 2 words - well known as a dog whistle insult

Dog whistle for the bingo card

Dog whistle for the bingo card.

Dog whistle insult.

Saying trans woman, instead of transwoman.

Or have i got that arse about face??

I was thinking Renton - if not, Leslie Thomas? The one who was especially annoyed because he thought he had a good relationship with Allison B until she raised issues?

Tawdry was re TW as one word instead of 2 words

Can these people actually hear themselves? 🙄

No you've got it exactly right.

Lots of hurty feels over a space. We must use the space!

Transwomen is the dog whistle as it makes it clear they are a subset of men.

Ben's tone

YEs @Ereshkigalangcleg thank you, this guy is giving me David Renton vibes.

My goodness, Prof Keogh is getting upset about transwoman vs trans woman. As BC said, dancing on the head of a pin here.

Oh bloody hell they're to be burnt at the stake for transwomen not trans women. Really? By the way witness is using pronouns for people here where he certainly hasn't checked what the academic's pronouns are. Transphobic!

Gender Critical beliefs are material reality. If you don't think that they should be platformed you're saying universities shouldn't platform research into reality. All reproductive medicine research is out of the window, cancer research (sex and hormones important there) Etc.

Maybe they really do want to make scientific research impossible i.e. the dark ages.

BC: If you have GC belief that TWANW then using tw without space is linguistic way of making clear you are not talking c women. using lang precisely to show what you mean

PK: suggest you ask TW if they find it insulting

BC: People may find things upsetting but for a philosopher to use lang precisely is a good way to write, not tawdry

PK: Many people would know what precisely is meant by that

BC: yes, that they believe TWANW

He LOVES the sound of his own voice.

Prof suggesting that even though he will respect gc beliefs, you can't say transwomen rather than trans women cos it hurts the TWs feelings. He appears to have no regard for women's feelings. That's what's really tawdry! He is really showcasing his misogyny. Love Ben! Been gardening!

Have thrown some more beans into the garden for Jo, Ben and Annie to have a stiff drink.

Am pencilling this one in as pompous windbag no. 2, although there's a potential bowl of custard lurking under the bag.

He's now saying we should be mindful of the needs of trans people. Not once has he mentioned the needs of women.

How does he square what he's saying with the transsexuals that don't like to be called trans women? Like Miranda Yardley? Has he asked them all? No, he wants to be the one to decide he doesn't give a shiny shit about transpeople.

I'm actually feeling quite sorry for transpeople. With friends like these, who needs enemies.

PK: you need to be really careful about the possible impact of people who might be affected by your work

BC: so you believe s o in the univ should censor how JPk should express his philosophical beliefs. Adopt their lang

PK: Does Dr Pike disagree with transpeople?

BC - you believe someone in uni should censor the language he used to express his beliefs?
PK - he should work with someone who is affected by the language he uses

I think we know what he thinks about women. Misogyny 101.

I'm trying to keep up...

"There's Space-cadetium, Cathologium and Epistemologium
Holidayium, Zemiologium and Batshit-ideologium
Dig-the-gardenium, Schedule-gonium, I-reversed-into-a-binium*
Sneery-Profium, Peaked-Judgium, Someone-buy-Ben-a-ginium

*At this point your composer may have got her cases mixed
But if it's not lesbian knickers then it's sucking female dicks"