Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

BC: we agree that people can give their opinons. I'm looking at what people Do with their disagreement

They never do.

A key difference is that GC people like and are comfortable with accurate language GI people do not like accurate language as it does not support their belief.

Transwomen are a subset of men and so is accurate, trans women are women (a subset of women) is not.

Intersex is old fashioned and does not accurately describe the medical position. Disorders/Differences in Sex Development (DSD) is far more accurate.

Mumsnet used to have an excellent thread about MESMAC.

TRAS prefer trans woman - as it implies that a trans identified male is a category/type of woman. Black woman, white woman, disabled woman, Italian woman, strange woman, trans woman......

Intersex is old fashioned and does not accurately describe the medical position. Disorders/Differences in Sex Development (DSD) is far more accurate.

and is also the preferred term from DSD's.

So LD accepts random letters from unknown people and signs on the dotted line but is not in agreement with the content??????

Things that make you go hummmm...

Brilliant!

For the song, there's probably more flexibility if you go back to the original major general rather than the elements version. And less risk of copyright infringement.

I'm getting a sort of Owen Jones vibe. Older and more Irish obviously.

Exactly.

PK: Univ was sustaining a rich seam of work in sexuality, gender and health - a unique way of doing its work. Senior management seemed ignorant of the problems. I was telling them they have to deal with the tensions.

A rich Seam of work = we were bringing in money

PK: The work on trans health which was blossoming at that time has been killed.

Late place mark

So ummm......women?

PK: V impt to know at that time we had a study that employed entirely t and nb staff working with t and nb community across the UK - large survey and follow up work.

To the tune of The Logical Song

Seems to be going strong to me

https://business-school.open.ac.uk/research/projects/icta

Hmm, wonder how they ended up employing an entirely trans and non-binary team? There is an exception in the Equality Act that lets you employ staff of a particular sex in certain circumstances, but there is no provision for it to be legal to discriminate in employment in favour of trans and non-binary people. So did the best candidates just happen to be trans and non-binary? Extraordinary.

Thank you all for your sterling work reporting on what’s happening.
who’d be a judge, eh?

I wish Ben or Judge would challenge him on this 'speaking for my people' thing. How does he know all TQ+ identified people prefer this?

He is acting as the mouthpiece for a specific political movement that is in no way representative of all TQ+ people - I've seen how the movement treat the ones that don't speak and think as they're told.

And yes, it's overt that he does not believe that any of this mindfulness and sensitivity should be extended to anyone else. Particularly women, who should just unquestioningly do as they are told.

The research team linked above lists people who identify as “cis gendered”

He's allowed to interrupt you Professor! You're in a court now, not a lecture theatre.