Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

PMK for tomorrow. Thanks for the last couple of hours of updates.

Thanks @ickky.

One thing I think has been demonstrated is that basically everyone at OU bent over backwards to consider the feelings of people who believe in gender but did less than fuck all to consider the (presumably considerable, even if too scared to mention it) students and staff who believe that there is incontrovertible evidence of two sexes in humans and that this matters. Like their entire science faculty, presumably.

It was so incredibly unbalanced. The latest witness, Downes, was some sort of EDI lead and didn't even consider the impact of Jo's cancellation and the response of Downeself and colleagues to this on GC students and other staff. I.e. AS EDI lead Downself was actively excluding GC people from consideration. Oh and Downes really wants vulnerable women locked up with male rapists. Something to do with self identities. Presumably the women who want to self identify as 'safe' don't count.

This self identifying thing is funny - seems to only really count when it's men and women in positions of power doing it.

Oh and Downes really wants vulnerable women locked up with male rapists.

Oh I don't think this comment is fair. Downself doesn't want rapists locked up at all. Apparently it harms them.

What have I missed? Has @BenCoopersSupportWren composed the theme tune for our film/tv series?

Any wildlife posted on Twitter today?

Christ, some people really do need to be punched repeatedly in the face with reality.

Brilliant! Thanks for the updates, really appreciate it.

They just comes across (to me) as slippery as eels when made to account for themselves. When left to their own devices to operate unchecked, they appear to be destructive, and vindictive. Respect (if they ever had any) for all some witnesses, and their 'work', must be at rockbottom by this stage.

Mind you, it is doing wonders for my relative perception of myself. These luvvies doesn't seem to be able to string a coherent response or thought together that doesn't come across as batshit or mendacious. I suppose it wouldn't be helpful to their defence if they did.

I'd make an appointment with a doctor for a few of them as they appear to have a very bad case of memory loss (when convenient).

We are learning why the OU barrister was so harsh on Jo. She tried to give the impression that Jo was a difficult woman who brought everything on herself. She was doing something underhand by networking with like-minded colleagues without going public at first. She engineered the actions taken against her so she would have something to make a complaint about. She wasnt really upset at the time. Her memory is unreliable. She wasn't 'collegial' (yuck). But none of that was on the main substance and facts of what happened. Just character assassination. We speculated that it was bevause their case was weak, and its increadingly looking like that was true. So much weaker than the case that Ben Cooper is making as he walks them through it.

I keep thinking it can't get worse for the OU and then it does..... like the head of HR simultaneously admitting it was a controversial issue but also that she had NEVER read JP's grievance. AT ALL. And, by deduction that means all her input to decisions were based on hearsay and without considering JP's side of things.

And then it becoming apparent that the OU had not disclosed two other grievances against them on similar issues. I do wonder what JM's unfiltered views on THAT gem are. Whilst she is obviously on the 'other side' to the one I'm supporting, I recognise JM is professional. Unlike those she is paid to represent.

The last witness LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI, took great exception to things that Jo Phoenix has said.

And when pressed by BC to specify, said well, she said people with penises can't have babies.

That's what we're dealing with.

Glorious sunlight, in other words.

Oh I did enjoy BC pointing out the issue wasn't that people with penises can't have babies =/= transwomen are predatory. And in fact that if you put people with different sets of reproductive organs into the same space like prisons, then they're going to have sex {he didn't touch on the point on whether it's consensual or not} and thus babies will arise.

So, are we supposed to believe that witness (Leigh Downes) really thinks that 'people with penises' otherwise known as males, can carry and give birth to babies?

Remember all those batshit tweets after Maya’s case? All the things people thought the judgement didn’t mean.

I think a lot of people held Stonewall law and be kind (to the special people) in their head and chose to believe we were allowed to think (believe) our gender critical thoughts but not to express them. Which is how we’ve ended up with Ben having to walk some very confused witnesses through what exactly was it Jo said/did that was offensive and not covered by her legally protected beliefs.

I don't think so @Cailleach1 , I think it's all part of LD's train of thinking. LD hears "male-bodied" and instantly leaps to "this is denying the transwoman's sense of self". The very act of observing someone's biology is a transphobic act to LD.

Perhaps she was alluding to transmen? Although, thankfully, few of them seem to go through the horror show of getting a fake penis.

like the head of HR simultaneously admitting it was a controversial issue but also that she had NEVER read JP's grievance. AT ALL.

😮Shocking!

Was it ever established who was 6'5"?

I didn't think she hadn't read it at all, just that she'd only read the first few paragraphs but never read it in full. Still shockingly unprofessional mind you.

Ok. I admit I haven't read tribunal tweets yet, I am waiting for my glass of wine.

But as a much less senior HR person who has to get my hands dirty a lot, I wanted to comment on the OU HR head not reading the grievance.

I wouldn't expect a HR head of an organisation as big as the OU to read a bog standard grievance, particularly whilst it was ongoing.

Once the process was closed and appeals exhausted, I would expect the grievance ro be part of some sort of report, to be shared with the very important HR Head if it was bog standard

If the grievance exposed cultural or wider organisational failings and risks, or across the board failures. I would expect it be raised with the Head. So, this for example might be holiday pay bring calculated incorrectly, leading to underpayments, health and safety failures, culture of bullying and harrassment etc. This would to be for the very important HR Head to deal with the wider issue, not with the specifics of the grievance.

That being said, I am surprised she didn't read the grievance at the time, just to understand the organisation's exposure to risk in this contested area.

A passing comment by BC to a previous witness.

They were explaining why they didn't do anything to support JP because it wasn't policy or the legal advice didn't tell them they had to. Ben said, what about morality?

Was it this fella? Definitely a 6’5” mention in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=5Q5giAAn76BwM2nj&v=VGC6g7JHUi0&feature=youtu.be

I suspect it is that Dolatowski male person who 'identifies' as something or other with a nouveau female moniker. Dolatowski is a sex offender with more than one offence. Dolatowski covertly filmed, and also attempted to sexually assault a young girl.

Just been having a read back over this afternoon's thread. How did I not see your Lehrer periodic table song @BenCoopersSupportWren ?! Brilliant! 👌

It really was excellent and deserves repeating on this thread. Please @BenCoopersSupportWren ?