Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

So complaining to the whole faculty was unacceptable but LD encouraging 300 people to sign an open letter was fine?

BC - I'll just remind you of my question, I'm not asking you how you felt about it...
LD proceeds to tell him how she felt

LD, my only concerns were about the trans and non binary being upset about the responses.

BC reminding LD of the need to answer

BC: Question about whether an email contained reasonable views:

LD: I feel...., me...., I...

BC: getting snippy now with trying to get LD to answer the questions.

OMG - she cannot answer a basic question.

LD: I felt like...I didn't feel...

BC: I'll try that q one more time and move on. I'll remind you of my question. I'm not asking your view. Were issues raised by others reasonable and legitimate.

LD: Some responses went across the line as they complained across the faculty. Should have contacted LGBT network instead re their concerns. I was concerned c the responses and whether they would upset LGBT people.

BC; Press for answer to my q. Was the claimants response one of those that went over the line in your view.

LD: I don't think claimants response was over the line.

She knows the answer, but knows BC will take her bullshit apart.

With my four year old I often have to specify that this is a yes or no question. BC is welcome to use this technique if it helps

LD: Laura was doing research on this area and therefore it was fine for her to have this view.

Years ago I did a management course (ironically with OU) and one thing I remember being taught was services providers can have a tendency to over-identify with their clients. I imagine this must also be a big issue when studying people - difficulty in remaining impartial and maintaining appropriate boundaries. It has always struck me as a big risk when you bring in the mantra ‘nothing about us without us’. It leads not only to bias but also puts people at risk.

LD: Saying someone is biologically male like Caster Semenya is crossing the line

How do you talk about fairness in women's sports without referring to biological maleness?

😁

He's given her more than enough rope, it's all over bar the twitching.

Re email
LD: I thought this was criticising me so I raised it with my line manager

I thought they are male?

They are. It is a disorder of sexual development that only affects males.

So LD was upset that the fact that women are having to refer to their rapist as 'she' was mentioned. Fucking hell she's a total shit

They are male, it's well established.

BC: Legitimate concern to raise.

LD: No, I disagree with this one. I found this q upsetting. Reads 'Women complain c judge making women call their rapist a she'. I found those statements upsetting and would upset t colleagues

Bouts of coughing in the court. No wonder BC is unwell, it sounds like a germ factory there.

LD is upset at the statements about rape victims having to refer to their attackers as she and how distressing it is for them. But she's upset on behalf of the rapists! There is no hope for her.

tangentially this is where you get to when PhD’s are only awarded for original research. People have to make up research areas so they can pursue them. Trans prisoners must be a rich seam of original research. And I can see why there’s a lot invested in protecting it as valid subject area. There are careers, money, high profile seminars books all linked to the academic research.

Thank you for the threads, wims, much appreciated.

But she's upset on behalf of the rapists!

And the poor trans/NB people having to read them being misgendered.