Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

I am not denying any of the issues raised and I'm also not saying I have any good answers to them. As a woman, I can respect other women's concerns
I think because I have interacted with trans people often and have lots of transgender friends, I am able to better understand their struggles and realise that they aren't the problem and they can't help questioning their gender even if some people are affected by it
Not here to say anyone's 'wrong', just give my own view on it

You are assuming none of us are trans; depending on definitions some of us are under the trans umbrella but can still think it's incorrect to say your personality can "match" your body.

It no longer means "someone that strongly wishes to be the opposite sex", which I think a lot of people are confused about.

No, women's rights are at stake here - trans rights, whatever that means these days, is people demanding what they are not entitled to. How exactly is it a human right to be legally counted as something that you are not?

As for my 'narrative'? you're the one claiming that this board is like the daily mail, what a lazy accusation, as though we're some right wing nut jobs frothing over nothing. Pesky little women not behaving eh?

I don't know what the Mary Beard thread was because I wasn't on it, but women are entitled to be angry with those who ignore blatant issues that are harming us, we don't need your permission to do so.

DeadbeatYoda
And has it not occurred to you that these otherwise rational people simply see things a little differently to you? Would it not be more productive to hear their thoughts and consider them - no necessity to agree, just not hurl ridiculous accusations at them.

As for this - have you gone on twitter or reddit and asked and TRAs the same thing lately? You are likely to get death threats and rape threats in response. That's what we're dealing with.

This is such a heated and important topic, women's and trans peoples rights are at stake. We need a grown up conversation, perhaps even to understand that we may never completely agree, not playground bullying.

I quite agree, maybe start with your own posts and stop calling feminists here "delusional" and "mobs"?

DeadbeatYoda, that was kind of the point of the thread - I think it is a really important topic, I really want to understand where TRA’s are coming from, what is their actual definition of ‘woman’ and ‘man’ because they are obviously different from the ones I’m working with. Every time I ask that kind of question elsewhere I just get abuse or banned. And some of the abuse is vile - MN is completely tame in comparison.

I’m asking where is it possible to have a proper debate? Yet even here, one pp felt any kind of debate or questioning was ‘hate speech’

I suggest that you rethink your belief that people on this board don’t regularly interact with trans people and don’t have them in our daily lives. That is a common statement that we get all too often.

You are also continuing to make statements such as ‘they aren’t the problem’. Who? Trans people? Or just your friends?

As we have said repeatedly already, policies and laws are not based around your friends that you assure us are lovely, they are based around the people you admit exist that are the minority who will harm women and children. And discussing the issues, including those who are those who harm others, is needed and is not hateful or phobic or deserving of derision.

However, do you also acknowledge that girls and women are fully entitled to privacy and dignity in their own single sex spaces? No male people. Not even the nice ones that you choose to vouch for. Otherwise many of us can vouch for many just as nice male people to come in.

“trans women are women so can go in women's spaces”

This is your statement.

Safeguarding and needs arising from many valid reasons really comes down to the fact that if even one woman or girl says no, that they are traumatised or distressed by a male coming into a single sex space, they are the ones that deserve priority. Those male people need to find alternative solutions.

Many female people who take testosterone and change their facial cues and voice to be more in line with male people understand this. Some post on this board and they tell us the respect the potential distress that they may cause and they find alternative solutions. They even have developed apps to help with that they are that conscious of the need.

So why are people who profess to care about women and girls prepared to subject women and girls to potential harm and/or distress to prioritise male people? Why are the needs of female people dismissed so male people “can go in women's spaces”?

And if female trans people understand and work to find a solution to respect the needs of other female people, why don’t male trans people also respect the needs of female people?

@Helleofabore I mean trans people in general. Because if a trans person is a predator, the issue is that they are a predator and not that they are trans. I'm definitely not saying all trans people are good
I would be happy to share women's spaces with respectful trans women but there is always a risk. Many cis women are predators too and there is danger whatever space you enter. A trans woman might harass a man in a men's space so there is never an easy solution but as i said the problem is not their gender, but the behaviour itself. Even if we did exclude all biologically male people from women's spaces regardless of gender identity, assault would still occur so we really need to tackle the entire issue of this behaviour and not make generalisations across a whole group of people, most of whom are innocent

“Many cis women are predators too?” Leaving aside the use of the insult cis, what % of women are “predators” compared to men?

I'd love to see your statistics of predatory biological females

Many cis women are predators too

There's no such thing as a "cis woman" unless you mean those women who self identify as "cis" for whatever reason.

Being a "predator" is not feminine behaviour so by definition they cannot be a "cis" woman.

Again. The actions of anyone, trans or otherwise, do not mean that the definition of woman should be anything other than "female". If you disagree, explain why.

A trans woman might harass a man in a men's space

That's up to men to find a solution for though. Shifting them into the women's spaces isn't the solution.

Agree

You mean, people disagree with you? That's really the opposite of an echo chamber.

This whole board was created on the insistence of those who couldn't apparently stand to see feminist arguments about sex/gender. It was hived off from 'Feminist Chat' (link at the top) to keep it away from those who didn't want to read about it.

And now we get people coming on and complaining it's an echo chamber. The logic is baffling.

Please explain how a woman cannot be a predator. Women assault and harass people all the time

Being a "predator" is not feminine behaviour
Of course women can be predators.
What exactly are you meaning here?
Unless you mean it's not a group behaviour like you perceive men to be so therefore can't possibly be feminine or something women do?
What is feminine behaviour anyway?
Wearing your pinny, cooking up apple pie and smiling when husband says "honey, I'm home?"

The number of male vs female sexual predators are nowhere close. There are more transwomen - a small population - in prison than there are female sexual predators.

This is why, for example, there was recently something of a campaign to make sure refugee camps has sex segregated toilets - many women were being assaulted when going to the shared toilets, and this was identified as a safety issue.

It's a major part of why prisons are sex segregated.

Men of course can assault other men, and it does happen. It's less of a risk though because the majority of men are heterosexual, and also men are likely to be closer in terms of physical strength.

Please explain how a woman cannot be a predator.

They can. I can name the two or three in prison who meet that description, because they are notorious. It's vastly less likely than a man will be, whatever his "gender" identity.

@Farmageddon
I didn't say 'this board' was like the daily mail, I said much of the discussion was like the DM, how lazy of you to misquote me. And again, you add a straw man to the end of your criticism with the 'pesky little women' jibe. That's utterly unconnected to my point, just you shoehorning another one of your favourites in, eh?
And, what's that? You didn't even see the discussion to which I referred and yet you felt qualified to lambast me about it? How very lazy of you.

Of course women can be predators.
What exactly are you meaning here?

Why are they so less likely to be?

@HagoftheNorth
I completely agree. We should be able to ask questions and express concerns without the fear of being accused of transphobia. As is so often the case in life though, when the extreme wing of the 'other side' is behaving so unreasonably, we need to model the kind of debate we want to be part of, not sink to the crappy level they attack us with.

In real life I don't find anyone cares - in that nobody I know believes trans women are actually women or that they should be allowed in sports etc but does agree that we should be kind, respectful etc. I've definitely found it's just not a debate or taking up much brain space. The only real life friend who's had to put any headspace into it works for a housing association who have recently had a massive inclusivity push and she seems to find the whole pronouns on emails, gender neutral bathrooms, bring your whole self to work etc just a bit baffling and a distraction from her actual job. As a parent she hasn't found bring your whole self to work actually involves making accommodations for parents though!

Thanks for continuing to answer. However you have not answered at all about why you believe that girls and women who might be traumatised by any male in their spaces and need privacy and their dignity should be ignored by you and others who state that some males should use female single sex spaces. A minority of women who want to share space with these male people should not get to make this decision. Yet, they have.

So can you please explain why you feel that you prioritise male people above female people in this way? Do you understand that doing so dismisses their needs?

And can you tell us what you believe that those girls and women who are now beginning to self exclude from using female single sex spaces should do because other women have dismissed their needs to prioritise male people?

Please also address women and girls who have religious needs which is also an additional protected characteristic. Do you understand the impact of your dismissal of their needs on their lives and why do you dismiss their needs?