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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

206 replies

HagoftheNorth · 06/10/2023 09:13

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

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Justwrong68 · 08/10/2023 08:21

@speenmum so you're saying women get attacked already, so let's open the floodgates and let any male identify as a woman enter women's toilets?

popebishop · 08/10/2023 08:41

speenmum · 07/10/2023 23:17

Please explain how a woman cannot be a predator. Women assault and harass people all the time

You said "cis" women, not "women". Please can you be clear in what you are saying, as you constantly change language.

A "cis" woman is a female person who has a feminine gender identity. Being a predator would mean the 'cis' bit is doubtful.

I now assume you mean female people when you say "women". Do you? You haven't said, despite being asked. Can you at last clarify that, otherwise it's utterly meaningless to use the word "woman" when you could mean anything.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2023 09:05

speenmum · 07/10/2023 22:12

@Helleofabore I mean trans people in general. Because if a trans person is a predator, the issue is that they are a predator and not that they are trans. I'm definitely not saying all trans people are good
I would be happy to share women's spaces with respectful trans women but there is always a risk. Many cis women are predators too and there is danger whatever space you enter. A trans woman might harass a man in a men's space so there is never an easy solution but as i said the problem is not their gender, but the behaviour itself. Even if we did exclude all biologically male people from women's spaces regardless of gender identity, assault would still occur so we really need to tackle the entire issue of this behaviour and not make generalisations across a whole group of people, most of whom are innocent

Because if a trans person is a predator, the issue is that they are a predator and not that they are trans.

Your argument about ‘female people do it too’ is ignoring the overwhelming statistics and it is again dismissing reality while you wish to prioritise male people’s wants over safety of female people. This is the type of argument people use to placate themselves about their decision to expose women and children to additional risk of harm. It is a falsity. Is that what underlies your decisions here?

Yes! Absolutely we should address same sex violence! No arguments from me and I doubt any poster on this thread. We should be doing that now while continuing to safeguard against male people in female spaces though.

I can only assume that you cannot either produce any evidence that male people in any stage of transition have a reduced level of committing sexual offences than any other male OR perhaps you don’t understand the significance for me asking the question.

The significance is why do you wish to include the same % of male people who ARE likely to commit sexual offences in the female single sex spaces as safeguarding processes are designed to keep out? Ie. Why are you determined to include some male people into female only spaces knowing that all other male people have been excluded for exactly that same reason?

Do you understand the dissonance in your statements? On one hand you say ‘yes, I understand why all male people are excluded’ but then you twist and say but these particular male people, who have at least the same % of risk, should be allowed to use the spaces anyway’. So you knowingly allow them in.

Male people have huge physical advantages that have be proven to not be diminished with reduction or removal of testosterone. These are advantages that the very few female predators do not have. Therefore other female people are considered an acceptable risk because no area can be risk free unfortunately.

I also point out that female predators most likely have very different ways that they predate. So not only is it consistently shown that about 2% of sexual offences are perpetrated by female people across different countries, they are different in motive and how they access their victims.

Also, most traumatised girls and women will not be distressed by seeing another female in a place they expect to be only female people.

They will be distressed at male people’s presence. And it would be foolish to believe that women and girls with heightened senses due to male abuse are not likely to pick up male cues that a person is male. That women and girls can’t tell is another false trope that people repeat.

It is a trope often fed by female socialisation to not react adversely to a male in the female single sex space. And to never let those male people they know that they are uncomfortable with sharing single sex spaces with them amongst other defensive actions.

To repeat the point, the attempt to reframe the discussion to ‘all predators including female predators’ is meaningless. Amongst other things, It ignores the massive difference in prevalence and nature of predating, the male cue issue and glaringly, the physical differences- including grip strength, punch power, leverage, bone density, height and average muscle mass.

That you, personally, have chosen to ignore those aspects is your own choice and that is fine.

However, doing so you also then need to accept that you choose to create a special group of male people. A group you willingly exempt from safeguarding protocols. This has historically been shown to be very harmful to women and children. You are, in effect, using a form of positive discrimination for male people in doing so while then negatively discriminating against female people.

You can keep following your choice. But please don’t try to shame people, largely women, who disagree with you and seek to restate stronger safeguards for women and children by having single sex spaces that remain single sex.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2023 09:15

speen

While you are here, because you feel that the examples are rare and that female people are a risk too, could you please tell us on the thread how many additional girls and women you feel is acceptable collateral to be harmed by allowing a male person with a trans identity into any female single sex space?

Is it 1? Because well, we have past that number long ago.
Is it 2? same as above.
10?
50?
100?
1000?

We had a poster the other day on FWR tell us that they felt that an established trend of around 100 girls and women per year are acceptable to be sexually abused until we should be able to discuss these issues and campaign to ban all males in single sex space?

Do you agree?

That would be at least 500+ girls and women that should consider themselves acceptable in that poster's eyes to be harmed before they felt we could act.

What do you think? do you agree?

MehtotheChristmasrunup · 08/10/2023 10:06

It’s an argument akin to the one about dog breeds. The dog attacks in the papers (the ones that kill people) are mainly the same few breeds. Some breeds like Jack Russells have tendency to be a bit nippy and some like golden retrievers are soft as butter.
Many dogs would literally never bite a human. In the same way most of us couldn’t kill anyone.

The arguments over “some” and “all” and breed/biology over training/ environment and similar to men/women, gender/ stereotypes and sex/biological.
We get the same division between “all dogs should be on leads” and “there’s no bad dogs only bad owners”. People get very upset by it.

What we’ve got is that some qdog breeds are banned because we know that whilst a few might be lovely, when they turn, their size and strength will kill you.
Everyone is required to keep their dog under control at all times regardless of breed.

So we acknowledge the biology of dogs, accept that environment plays a part in temperament and still have safe spaces like children's parks that no dogs are allowed in.

anyolddinosaur · 08/10/2023 17:59

@speenmum You more or less started off your posts accusing us of hating transpeople. Untrue - unless your definition of "hate" includes not thinking you are the sex you claim to be. People generally wont even say it to a trans person unless there is good reason to do so. However there is a lot of hate, including threats of rape and violence, from trans activists.

First a definition just for this post as some people get confused -transwoman means born male, transman born female. There is some research showing that trans people retain the offending pattern of their sex. So transwomen have an offending pattern similar to other men and transmen have an offending pattern similar to other women. Since males are more likely to offend than women that means transwomen are more likely to offend than transmen. A disproportionate number of imprisoned sex offenders are transwomen. I've not seen anyone but you talk about this meaning transpeople generally are a problem, on the contrary most people know about the Scottish study showing some "transwomen" prisoners promptly "detransition" when leaving prison. But trans activists have - and some still do -insist that anyone who says they are trans must be believed.

I have a trans relative, they have a trans partner. It is a same sex relationship. Both have permanently damaged health. Confused children too young to have sex or marry fell into the clutches of pressure groups and the Tavistock and were persuaded there was something wrong with their healthy bodies. You may believe it is "being kind" to support transition but it is nothing of the sort - it turns healthy young people into lifelong medical patients whose physical health will only continue to deteriorate. There is no evidence that it will permanently improve their mental health although in the short term being part of a supportive group may be helpful..

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