Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

Yes signal. I am always rabbiting on about this.

As most of us know discrimination itself is not a negative thing. It can be positive, nuetral or negative. And even positive discriminate (such as used to select someone for reward) can be negative. And some negative discrimination (such as excluding people who are not transgender from a transgender person’s meeting) can be positive.

Then there is the discussion about whether negative discrimination is legitimate. And that distinction is also often ignored. So, sex segregation is based on discriminating between sexes and done for safeguarding as we know. Safeguarding is a legitimate and positive thing.

Too often lazy language portrays all discrimination as a negative thing and to be avoided. However, this is a falsehood.

Transitioned from male at birth??? Surely you’re not advocating pre pubescent children being given hormones & surgery 😨

Nothing about hating the other sex, what are you on about? Anyway, you agree with the GC position that being attracted to one sex is ok, and you disagree with Stonewall that it's like racism to do so.

I wasn't clear because you were talking about homophobia being bad but at the same time seeming to support the position that sex is irrelevant, and feeling feminine or masculine should allow you to identify as gay even if you are heterosexual.

Either we have some discrimination, such as separated classes for children and adults, say, or male and female changing rooms, or we have no discrimination, and no separations, checks or boundaries at all.

Would you suggest we don't check people's history for jobs where they are working with vulnerable groups? A DBS check discriminates against, say, people with sex offence convictions who apply to work with children.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/check-what-type-of-discrimination-youve-experienced/justifying-discrimination/#:~:text=The%20Equality%20Act%20says%20discrimination,if%20discrimination%20can%20be%20justified.

Please show who here has said not to treat trans people with respect and understanding?

Where is the respect and understanding for women and girls who are being pushed out of their rightful spaces?

Respect goes both ways.

Have you got that evidence I asked you for about how the risk of sexual offences for all male people in the UK is reduced by transition please?

Otherwise you are continuing to advocate for a reduction in safeguarding procedures for a group of male people without evidence and continuing to put women and children in harmful situations.

because trans women are women so can go in women's spaces

In what way is a transwoman a woman? What things does a transwoman share with a woman that means they are in the same classification?

DH is a man so no. But if it was a wife who had transitioned from male at birth then yes. because trans women are women so can go in women's spaces

And this is the crux of the issue. Many do not agree with that statement but it's impossible to debate when it's being stated as fact.

Well now you're just making no sense.
People don't transition to become women (but you know that really).
Men are not women and will never be.

Nope,they're still men.

I still can’t get past “transitioned at birth” - what does that even mean???

I think that in real life many people have measured views on this topic: they don't wish people who are trans any harm and think they should present as they wish, but at the same time thy know full well the difference between men and women and don't want to see men in women's spaces (loos and changing rooms for example).

The problems is that political correctness is forcing everyone to toe the line for fear of getting in trouble in places like the workplace for simply holding perfectly acceptable views.

So you are left with the impression that the majority agrees with the views of trans activists when frankly I don't think that is the case at all.

The fact that the debate has been shut down so widely is a concern.

Women's concerns need to be listened too.

I must say my own views have shifted in the past few months. I have a close trans friend and I have always been very supportive throughout her transition. I have seen some of the abuse she has received from men when out and about and no one should have to go through this. I know that she is now much happier with herself after transitioning. So I would not want to criticise anyone who goes though the process, which is really long and tricky one.

However as a victim of sexual abuse I am also very uncomfortable with men who present themselves as women using female loos and changing rooms. I also think that people should be entitled to have an opinion on the subject and to express it.

For the first time this week I got extremely uncomfortable when faced with a man who was wearing a dress in a charity shop: he was wearing a pink mesh dress which literary showed almost everything. The rest of his appearance was fully masculine. Frankly to me that is just pure exhibitionism and not what I went to see while shopping in broad daylight.

reddit.com/r/RealLesbiansRealWomen/s/QYO0RumPhM

Yes, I am a bit stuck there, too.

Unless pp is referring to someone with a Difference of Sexual Development? Of course, this doesn't involve any sort of 'transition', though.

Born male but pretending to be female for most of their life?

I guess traditionally the socialist ideal is to support the rights of the most oppressed, so the instinct is to indulge people who claim to be born in the wrong body. Those who've never questioned their identity feel sorry for anyone in this situation so assume that anyone daring to point out that it's a mental illness that can be dealt with using therapy and not surgery and cross sex hormones is seen as abhorrent. Then compounded by the right wing orgs in the US protesting outside schools, the mainstream press, who want to look unbiased can't report on it without giving what's considered (wrongly) hate speech a platform. As usual, women's rights are collateral.

It makes no sense Wicked that’s why we’re 🤯

How does a baby pretend to live as a male? They have no agency. The only way would be for that to be imposed on them by a parent which is so wrong where would we even start??

I think the word TERF is the villain of the piece

If your thinking is based on a lie, then the entire thought process that stems from that lie is fundamentally flawed.

@speenmum I’m a woman - not a “Cis” woman, thank you, I don’t need any prefixes, “woman” is the only word I need - and I don’t want men in my single-sex toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, or sports.

That’s not an extreme position, and it involves no hatred or phobia, I just don’t believe humans - or any other mammal - can change sex. Trans women are not women, they are men, and that’s why I don’t want them in places I might be naked or vulnerable.

I don’t care what people wear or how they present, I just don’t want men in my single-sex spaces. “Good men stay out so bad men stand out”, as the saying goes.

You are really very offensive Speen.
How dare you call people cis for a start, no fucking way do I subscribe to stereotypical be kind shit for a start and that doesn't make me a man.
Your view is very homophobic and you think men dressing up as women turn into women and are no longer dangerous. You are a misogynist. I'm quire upset by the way you portray gc people which really just means recognises biology and hates stereotypes.
GI is regressive and damaging to all, there's no such thing as boy toys or girl clothes ffs.

Come on girls. What Speen meant was a male person who ‘is’ now a female person. She means AMAB , not cut the 🐓off the moment they emerge from the womb. (although I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the more convinced supporters are considering it). ‘ she sat low, so she must be a girl, really’.

It's always an interesting comparison when you consider how gender dysphoria is supposed to be treated as opposed to how other forms of body dysmorphia are treated.
The affirmation only model does far more harm than good. Challenging disordered thinking is part of any good treatment model, however we are now told that this is discrimination and bigotry.

How far is society supposed to go to indulge a persons delusion?

Could you imagine someone who was severely anorexic being told by a clinician 'yes, yes, you're still too fat, keep starving yourself'. It's bizarre.