Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

Recently a transwoman was on this claiming the Dr told them they were trans and they didn't know themselves, they have literally been fed this to explain away their anxiety or depression. It is horrific. They were totally on board with this saying sometimes the professionals can tell more than the patients. Making unhappy people medicated for life for what? Money to the pharma industry?

So it seems not even self id but some random Dr deciding. How have we got here? I have 11 and 12 year old girls telling me in pshe they are not sure they should be a girl. Wtf? There's no such thing as a way to be a girl, you just are. Bodies are not wrong.

The question of WHY this one issue is supposed to be dealt with so differently than everything else keeps coming to mind. Why such exceptionalism, that isn't expected or demanded from anything else?

I keep thinking, who benefits? Certainly not the children struggling with their pubescent bodies changing, in a world where they are told they can be whatever they want and anyone who questions them is 'literally killing them', that can't be good for their mental health. Nor can the idea that your whole identity and sense of self is so dependent on everyone else reflecting your imagined self back at you - that's a recipe for disaster.
It's certainly not benefitting women and girls who are being bullying and pushed out of their legitimate spaces and afraid of pushing back for fear of being labelled monsters.

The only ones really benefitting here are the middle aged men indulging their fetishes. And maybe the pharmaceutical companies cashing in on vulnerable young people dependent on hormones.

The rest of us are pawns in their game.

Mavis said
'That’s not an extreme position, and it involves no hatred or phobia, I just don’t believe humans - or any other mammal - can change sex.'

Reality backs up your belief Mavis. In the whole history of the existance of mammals, none have changed sex.

To clarify what would have to happen for a mammal to change sex. A mammal who's body is organised around the ability to produce one type of gametes (eggs or sperm) would need to change to being organised around the ability to produce the opposite gamete.

In the whole history of evolution this metamorphosis has not happened to a mammal.

Humans are mammals.

PS, for the surgery fans out there. No, implanting the reproductive system from a female person into a male person doesn't count. It would also be an immoral thing to do IMO due to the dangers of such a surgery.

Certainly, it's used as a dehumanising slur.

Content warning, highly distressing site: https://terfisaslur.com/

I suppose transitioning at birth is what John Money claimed he did when he mutilated an infant - that didn't end well. It certainly didn't produce an adult woman decades later.

It's interesting that all the discussion so far has been steered towards men identifying as transwomen encroaching on women's spaces, with very few non- 'bathroom' examples, never mind sports, quotas etc etc.

For me the greatest horror produced by the genderist movement is the extent to which physically healthy young women are being encouraged to drug and mutilate themselves in pursuit of something illusory. The long-term injuries, both physical and mental that they suffer need to be discussed openly and often and they aren't being. It's obviously a lucrative industry, and I wonder whether the constant dragging the subject back to men and the desires of transwomen isn't at least in part to protect the cash cow.

I remember the days when young women in distress in adolescence starved and cut themselves - weird that that seems benign in contrast to what is happening now.

@Farmageddon How far is society supposed to go to indulge a persons delusion?

This question should be debated on all platforms

We have been told firmly by so many posters even this week that to discuss this is very transphobic.

This false accusation of hate has shut down so many discussions, not on MN however. That frustrates many!

A group of us started a discussion at my child's school about what they are teaching them re these issues. It took a LOT of messaging the SLT and the board to get full disclosure.

We now have a group of parents willing to discuss, but within this group there are distinct smaller groups:

Those who just want to know what their kids are being taught so they can clear up any confusion as to scientific fact.

Those who don't want their kids to know anything at all about their bodies or sex.

Those who are a little bit bigoted or religious and seem frankly, scared of the world and any difference from themselves.

It's not been easy. But I now know what my kids are learning and where I feel they might need a bit of clarification.

We have been branded as bigots by some people I think. And troublemakers. But I really couldn't give a crap.

Keep talking in the real world. We don't all agree. But that's ok. Keep talking to each other!

Trying to explain reality to fuckwits?
I think it's fine 😊

Well done for not giving a crap. May I ask what age?

'For me the greatest horror produced by the genderist movement is the extent to which physically healthy young women are being encouraged to drug and mutilate themselves in pursuit of something illusory.'

That's a good point Dean.

Anyone old enough to remember the general horror at the damage that was done to female East German athletes will be utterly perplexed at the celebration of the same damage being done to this cohort of vulnerable young women. Then you have to consider the further damage to the current cohort due to surgery. Phalloplasty has the most awful complication rates. All this is meant to help a person's mental state?

If you have someone with a fragile mental state, how does increasing their chances of (for example) incontinence, help?

Even the more extreme parents wait until the child is old enough to ask when the good fairy is going to come and change their penis into a vagina.🙄

"Transitioned at birth" is my new favourite example of utter incoherence. Thanks speen for your contributions !

'Vegan cats' don't decide to go vegan.

Neither do babies.

Transitioning babies are humans that have been willfully abused by their parents and the adults that facilitate it, because they lack the capacity and understanding to consent to transitioning.

Just so we clear this up.

Thank you @RedToothBrush

i can only assume that Speen doesn’t really appreciate the implication of what they’re saying

Much as I agree strongly with the need to approach trans rights with women's rights at equal billing, I find much of the discussion on this board like something out of the daily mail, and I am very uncomfortable with that. The way people laid into Mary beard for having a different opinion to the mob on here was ugly.

To be fair, that paediatrician in the US did claim that pre-verbal children could 'signal' their gender identity by pulling barrettes out of their hair or ... unpopping a onesie, was it? I'll go and find the reference.

My brother said he 'felt like he was a girl since he was about 7'.

This, of course, is nothing to do with the fact that my mother CONSTANTLY used to say that she thought that we were 'born the wrong way round' because of what toys we liked to play with and our personalities. It was an issue for me for a long time and I was the elder one. The pressure my parents put on my brother was considerably more. My dad worked away but changed jobs because they felt 'he was suffering from a lack of male role models'. He was also shit at sport and this wasn't taken well. There were numerous attempts to get him into sport (no such equivalent for me).

Basically they were sexist and were terrified he'd be gay.

I grew up in this bubble. I saw it from the inside. I KNOW it's a real thing.

And I do think there's even stronger pressures with the whole accepting of non-conformity and desires to be a sparkly family than 30 years ago.

Social contagion and parental pressure is a MASSIVE thing. Much more than I think many are willing to believe. But ask a primary teacher if they could match kids with parents from behaviour alone and they'd probably have a bloody good idea.

Plus theybies exist and are valid.

But does that equate with the "better a daughter than a dead son" narrative which I find so hard to believe

No that is just emotional manipulation, abuse and coercion.

I have a vague memory of a blue haired woman talking about toddlers pulling barrettes out of their hair.

It’s the “mob on here” as you call it that have been the ones pushing back. I firmly believe that without women in here supporting crowd funding for court cases, raising issues with schools, employers & public bodies, writing to MPs & generally refusing to give in to the threats made against us by TRA, self ID would be law & our rights to single sex spaces would be gone.

but yeah “a mob”

I would never want to be associated with that vicious gossip rag, like most socialists; but they're the only paper open to a full debate.