Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

k

''At what age can a child first begin to transition into another gender or identify themselves as a gender different from how they were born?'

'Yeah, well, I mean, there's there's research and data that show that babies and infants understand differences in gender. Some children figure out their gender
really early, and the reason why we are - say - oh, that's interesting or important is because they're figuring out their gender identity is not necessarily congruent
with their sex assigned at birth'

Do watch the whole thing if you'd like to hear the doctor's views on chickens' gender identities.

Here's the one I was looking for:

s

Yeah my son was born with a willy but couldn't wait to get into his fishnets and a leather mini

Diane Ehrensaft - Developmental/clinical psychologist; Director of Mental Health, Child & Adolescent Gender Center, Associate Professor of Pediatrics, UCSF - has some unconvential views.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4489277-Video-Series-Diane-Ehrensaft-and-Satanic-Panic

Sorry for tangential posts. Just wanted to offer a more complete picture of some of the views on babies and toddlers being 'trans'.

I’m on a usually very kind supportive group (99% female, very small minority dads, one loud trans woman) linked to my job which has totally blown up because of a trans post in the last few days. Given it’s science based I was astounded by the number who said TWAW (was about single sex hospital wards). Anyone that posted a GC view got rounded on. I would be amazed if the vast majority of that group are not fairly GC but too scared to speak up. I could see how it was going and declined to get involved.

The reason it's more middle aged people speaking out is because we don't give a flying fuck

one loud trans woman man

Man intimidates predominantly female group into agreeing with him or being too scared to say anything

17 years on I feel I need to speak out. In support of my sibling. Because I don't believe in the 'happily ever after' narrative for a reason.

I've watched this interview several times,that woman is frighteningly deluded.

I'm constantly shocked by people who for any other topic would argue the rational, scientific or common sense argument, who seem to throw all of that out the window for emotional manipulation tactics when it comes to this issue. All while blatantly ignoring basic reality.

The fact that the group you mention is mostly women doesn't actually surprise me, although I find it sad how many women are so willing to throw other women under the bus in the service of male validation. I don't know if it's socialisation, we are always, always supposed to put others first, even if it disadvantages us. And women are the first to shame other women for not being nice enough, even in the face of absolute shit.

But you see it on here too, the likes of DeadbeatYoda and others wagging their finger at us for not being kind enough. Why is it that only women are expected to stay polite and kind and nice, and move over, no matter how much shit is thrown at them? Why aren't we allowed to get angry, and frustrated when our hard won rights are being systematically dismantled?

Yes, parts of it are quite entertaining and it's easy to forget that this woman is medicating children based on these beliefs.

I had that once. I said "tell it to the woman who was raped on a "female" only ward by the trans identifying male the staff let in. I bet she agrees with single SEX wards.

It's frightening how women are no longer safe even in hospitals because the staff are so concerned with accommodating men's feelings that they are willing to compromise safety of females. It;s a Hierarchy of Equality and "Rights" - Men's Rights are at the top of the Hierarchy. Women's at the bottom.

Yes,it's almost funny and then you remember what she does for a living.

DHs mum always used to make a point about telling a story about her Mum and how her own mum favoured boys. Stuff like who got the umbrella and who got first choice on things. It's not new. All to do with keeping up the family name.

I can't say she learned much from her own experiences tbh. She's made some pretty horrid comments about one of her granddaughters appearance to us. (We've only got DS but it's totally inappropriate all the same).

That's very interesting, I got deleted, presumably because I said (in response to RedToothbrush's posts) that some parents and other adults in the past did psychological damage to children that they thought should conform to the sex stereotypes of their day, but that the current possibility of similarly intolerant adults encouraging children whose behavior they disapprove of to take dangerous chemicals that damage them for life or to have irreversible surgeries on healthy bodies is worse.

Are we not allowed to say that damaging children (psychologically or physically) in the name of enforcing random stereotypes is wrong?

I also gave a 19th century example of children not conforming to sex stereotypes who were accepted as they were and who grew up to be happy adults (Johnny and Dorry Carr in Susan Coolidge's Katy books).

If a baby/toddler girl pulling their hair clips out is proof that they are actually a boy, does that mean that my son pulling his socks off as a baby/ toddler is proof that he was actually meant to not have feet?

the unbuttoning of baby grows and removal of hair clips add to the already large links with autism with sensory disorders

Actually - I genuinely apologise to @speenmum - I think the 'transitioned from male at birth' means transitioned from 'male at birth', rather than the transitioning happened then.

It's a weird way of just saying 'male' - the 'at birth' is unnecessary in that context, because "male at birth" is no different from "male at 75" or "male on Tuesday" - so we all misread it (I think).

Anyway, looks like speen has more in common with us than they seemed to think when they came on here - believing that there is something male about a man, and female about a woman, that same-sex attraction is perfectly fine, and disagreeing with Nancy Kelly on that.

There was a very old ragmag joke:
How do you tell the sex of a chromosome?
You take down it's genes.

I don't suppose that's allowed now.

Please don't suffer the delusion that women on this board are the only people aiding with the funding of such matters, they really aren't.

@Farmageddon
I'm not wagging my finger at people for not being 'kind' and expecting only women to be so. That is simply shoehorning your own favourite narrative onto someone you disagree with. I am saying that I was uncomfortable with the way people laid into Mary beard ( not just disagreeing but being thoroughly nasty) in the same way the screaming end of the trans lobby lay into those of us that happen to disagree with some of their assertions.
And has it not occurred to you that these otherwise rational people simply see things a little differently to you? Would it not be more productive to hear their thoughts and consider them - no necessity to agree, just not hurl ridiculous accusations at them.
This is such a heated and important topic, women's and trans peoples rights are at stake. We need a grown up conversation, perhaps even to understand that we may never completely agree, not playground bullying.

If anyone wants to join Ovarit - the women lead largely GC discussion board - then message the mods on twitter for a joining code or email [email protected] .

https://twitter.com/WomenAreOvarit

"A world where women cannot discuss topics impacting our rights is a world where women cannot preserve or advocate for our rights.

Ovarit is run by a team of radical feminist women dedicated to safeguarding women’s ability to have community with other women and speak freely about issues that matter to us as individuals and as a class. We created this space because we, like those who seek to silence us, understand the power of women's voices and experiences. We are here to make sure they are heard.

The Ovarit community is made up of a broader group of people. Ovarit is open to women of all persuasions. Men are allowed to join some conversations, but must respect boundaries. This corner of the internet is one of increasingly few places, real or virtual, unapologetically dedicated to prioritizing and centering women.

While many of our subcommunities (called circles) are explicitly feminist, others are simply about topics that are relevant to women, and are not overtly political except to the extent that women's existence has been politicized."

Many of the boards, known as circles, are women only and the mods are all women, in the single sex, biological sense. The idea is that no men are moderating what women can discuss or how they discuss it. The boards all have slightly different rules on what you can post and how you should do it so it can take a bit to get your eye in though instructions are clear at the top of each board, but I am very grateful for its existance. Not least because you can easily link to petitions and fundraisers on the Activism circle without being moved or deleted!

A nice celebratory tweet here https://twitter.com/womenopausal1/status/1707749270865039639 after Ovarit was born out of the problems on reddit.

Exactly!