Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

I always thought the majority of the 'trans' people in South Asia are actually intersex. I would not equate them with trans people. They have got a genuine medical issue.

"For example, I wouldn’t dream of going around telling obese people that they’re fat. That would be harassment. But neither should I be compelled to refer to an obese person as “slim”."

That is the GC stance, as far as I'm aware. However, they also think you should be allowed to debate issues around the topic - such as tackling childhood obesity, the sugar tax etc. None of these things are fat shaming anymore than thinking trans women are men is transphobic. There would be consequences for thin people if obese people tried to make clothes manufacturers change their sizing and make small a size 18, only accommodating people bigger than that. We're at this position in your example.

Going back to the OP, I think it comes up naturally in conversation as soon as it is in your face. I thought our school was very TWAW until a boy wanted to sleep with the girls at camp and our girls lost a sports event to a team with a boy. Suddenly everyone had opinions. Bringing it up out of the blue is a bit odd, much as suddenly pointing out the logical flaws in a religion might be.

IRL people are happy to discuss it (in places where they won't be punished for saying so). It's a lot like Putin in Russia, people don't like him but won't say so (to a TV camera, public official etc), it's the same with trans in the UK, people don't like what is happening, but it takes someone brave to raise their head above the parapet.

It's why the media and pollsters are surprised that the general public in reality isn't keen on this stuff (like pronouns, denying biological reality, mixed-sex toilets etc).

This is certainly not so in Thailand.

This is a really interesting point, which usually gets ignored by the trans activists because it's inconvenient to their demands. There are possibilities where a 'third option' or third space could well be accommodated, for people who do not want to present as their biological sex. However it would require an acceptance of reality which many trans allies do not want to cede.

Similarly the Faʻafafine of Samoa. They are men who find it easier to present in a feminine way, but they are not classed as women, nor do they claim to be.

I've found the opposite is true. What marks MN out from other forums in which this issue is discussed - and I use this term loosely stopping short of 'debated' - is that the GC position is largely informed, both by real world events, the plain evidence of people's eyes, and an actual knowledge of where the pretentious 'queer theory' came from that underpins GI in the first place.

You don't get any of this this when all you hear is the chanting of slogans - including the oft-repeated #NoDebate - soundbites, denial, rape and death threats, and the real prospect of 'cancelling' those who don't instantly fall into line (or who do fall into line then deviate from it by even a millimetre).

If you're discussing an issue in which the rights of one group apparently trumps the established rights of another, on some basis which eludes people and isn't easily identifiable or explainable, particularly when it's more than obvious how predatory men will take advantage, then you'd better believe it's advantageous to show however you came to hold the opinions you hold.

No debate, indeed.

The possibility of an echo chamber can exist whenever a group of like-minded people come into agreement.

There can be pile-ons and a lack of acceptance on nuance.

But what I believe you are alluding to is usually when someone comes onto the forum to claim that everyone is wrong and fails to produce any reasoned arguments. Usually a bad-faith poster.

Fear mongering falls into the same argument as "not all men are like that", protections are demanded for protection against the few dangerous people.

Misinformation? Well if using science and biological fact is considered misinformation, well...

@SerafinasGoose And indeed with the "NoDebate", I've had comments removed on other websites where I've literally posted a reference to another article on the same website which contradicts the points they're trying to make.

Basically whenever I flag up inconsistencies and contradictions in the argument I'm blocked.

PaperWalkAndTalk
Misinformation? Well if using science and biological fact is considered misinformation, well...

Well exactly, if FWR is some sort of 'echo chamber' because we consistently uphold biological reality then so be it.

Even on Mumsnet any thread on trans debate gets shunted sharpish onto FWR even if it is getting a lot of responses on eg AIBU and the thread was started in response to a mainstream news item eg comments from the Prime Minister. No reason for the shunt is given even when requested. So yes even here it's hard to debate this topic freely

😂 you are so wrong about that

Lentilweaver yes absolutely.
I lived in Thailand and was shocked by how prevalent the sex industry is out there.
Most of the Ladyboys are from unbelievably poor villages in North Thailand, who are enticed into being Ladyboys because they can earn so much money for their family back home.
Once they're back home during the off-season, they're men again, they're working on the land. They spend no effort pretending to be actual women as if they're anything like their mum, like Western gender ideologists do. I feel for them.

As people are probably bored of hearing, I've been on here for years, and I came because I couldn't quite square the trans narrative with how misogynist it appeared, so assumed I must be getting something wrong and thought this might be a place where ppl come to discuss it, honestly, and engaging in good faith.

Reader.... I don't really need to spell out the rest.

Out of every single one of the threads I've been on with trans people and genderists - some seemingly perfectly nice, others less so - they just refuse to engage. They can't or won't narrow down any kind of claim or have any interest in trying to communicate, so others can understand, what they supposedly believe.

I think the closest we got was from one of the fairly clueless regulars who said something like "a woman is the thing i feel like, i know i am because i just know and i can't explain it".

Yet we're supposed to reorganise law and society around THAT?
Others admitted that "female 'matches' woman because most females are women' - but couldn't say how this is defined or how they would know.

It's nonsense, and every time there's a drive-by "ooh you're hateful, you are" it's purely because there is no substance behind it.

It's embarrassing how far it's got tbh.

Essentially, this board is the place where people who believe the earth is round get away from the people who believe the earth is flat, which is apparently the NHS, the BBC, our ancient universities, our police forces etc.

Of course it's an echo chamber - people who think the earth is flat get short shrift here.

Do we think it's more important than people living in poverty etc? That's the wrong question. The right question is: why are our institutions getting away with peddling downright lies?

You can discuss it on Twitter; but there are groups dedicated to mass-reporting GC accounts. Thats one down side of posting there using your real name. Its a lot easier for me to set up a new account after being reported for hateful conduct after posting about e.g. Knackers brand sausages.

Some pp’s have perfectly articulated my frustration. I see/hear/read people who I know are intelligent, capable of critical analysis etc presenting the GI position as fact, and I want to hear them (or anybody else!) explain the compelling argument for what they are broadcasting.

I strongly suspect that the explanation, as hinted above, is that everyone is scared. How have we ever got into a place where asking for definitions of words used is decried as a ‘dog whistle’, and it is deemed brave or unacceptable (depending on your point of view) to say people can’t change sex, when that’s just a biological fact?

Can't help but wonder if perhaps this is why activists are under the impression the majority of people agree with them that TWAW?

They've blocked everyone who disagrees by this point, and then probably forgotten how big their block list is, thereby convincing themselves that everyone agrees with them.

I'd genuinely be so curious to see some kind of stats on that, though I imagine it'd be impossible to collect the data for lol.

@SpicyMoth Interesting point you make, I am sure there is some truth to that, also consider that they see any opinion that doesn't match their own as "literal violence" or "genocide" i.e. that my or your opinion is actually harmful to them you begin to see why they cannot begin to have a conversation or consider other points of view.

I think it goes a bit further than just being scared to speak up honestly, I think education has had a massive part to play to be honest.

A lot of people view this as the exact same fight as the fight for gay rights, they think people think about trans people in the same way people used to think about LGB people - when that's not the case.

In that same way, there are people out there who viewed/view Trump being elected as the exact same as Hitler's rise - and will call anyone "far right" or "Literally Hitler" so long as it suits their narrative, even if the person in questions believe in gay rights, marriage, abortion rights, etc.
(JKR being the most obvious example)

It seems to me to be far more centred around paranoia instilled in us at a young age to "do better than our parents/grandparents". It's based in fear, but it's a paranoid fear, which is almost worse :/

I'm sure there's at least one member in everyone's family when they were younger who was overtly bigoted and off putting for no reason.
It's not surprise that people want to avoid repeating that.
The surprise to me, is when countered with actual evidence and facts to back up warranted concern, THAT is still shrugged off.

Oh you are spot on there spicy.

The yougov polls have shown this as well. But also we see it here in so many other ways.

The yougov polls (and happy to link this up for any who have not seen them) show that people in the 18-28 year old age range are scared to discuss this with their family, friends, colleagues and any work or social group. Therefore this lack of discussion absolutely has given these 'allies' the false belief that this is an 'old persons' issue and that once we 'die off' it will all be different.

Yet, in polls, there are significant numbers of that age group who don't believe people can change sex and that sometimes this matters and that gender should not be prioritised for those laws and policies. Perhaps not as high but then also the same number of people in that age group as with others are confused by what the terms around transwoman, transman actually mean.

This may not be strictly on the topic of this thread, but I have spotted two examples in social media in the last few days of debates where the long rule of #nodebate had clearly damaged the GI side's ability to make effective debating points.

Staying inside their own bubble means that many activists have not had practice in reacting to certain challenging questions and have not read all the relevant studies etc., which makes them unprepared for actual debates where calling the other side names no longer works to end the debate.

Not yet, seeing as our police will arrest a person for daring to "hurt feelings" aka disagree with one of 'them'.

"Also on twitter, trans activists will reply to you but as soon as you present them with facts, research, articles and so on they just block you they do not engage in any conversation at all"

They just like to tell everyone they're "bigots/transphobes/TERFS/insultinsulthere"

Agreed SpicyMoth, I think an element of this for many younger people is the chance to demonstrate their activism, to show how much more progressive they are than previous generations, howe they are going to change the world. Unfortunately they seem to backed a lame horse.

So much of the narrative around this is about demonstrating that you are a 'good person' by supporting the ideology. And anyone who questions or disagree is therefore a 'bad person', who doesn't have to be engaged with, who can be blocked and deleted and called names because they are bigoted.

The actual message doesn't have to be engaged with or contemplated if you can just demonise the messenger and not think about it.

Also, calling someone transphobic is a great way to shut people up. It's not like calling someone an idiot or an asshole - calling anyone (something)phobic has baggage and connotations behind it that other insults don't have, so it's very effective.

Who want's to be labelled a bad person? Nobody. So most people will just back away from the argument, even if what they were saying was completely truthful, rational and not at all hateful.

So many of my circle made such strong commitments to TWAW mainly due to the Corbyn influence at the time that’s they now cannot be wrong. What they have become is either silent or adapt at changing the subject in the past few months