How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Do the work and tell us then. I’m not your google support human

Christ, it's the level of I'm rubber, you're glue.

No one gives a flying fuck what culture you're from.

Stop appropriating other people's culture in order to get men into women spaces (even if, and I don't believe I'm even having to say this, you share that culture).

Lol. Especially the edit.

Bewilderness's Rules

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. 11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. 12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. 13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. 14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent. 15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. 16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves. 17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Thunder Pants here is currently kindly demonstrating number 17 for us.

Its not often we get such clear demonstrations of no17 on MN.

Don't feed the boner.

No. You are the one who have politicised these cultures for your own wishes. You have just claimed that you know these cultures much better than me.

If you make that statement the onus is on you to clarify this.

If you don't then readers will understand you have made claims that you will not back up, again. And they will go and look up these very cultural elements you have attempted to leverage here to convince people that some males should have access to female single sex spaces.

ATTTTEEEEEENNNNTIIIOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

i WANT ATTTENNNNTIOOOONNN

sQQQUUUUEEEAAaaallll

read my post at 16.21

You’ve all ballsed up.

you accused me of being “racist” because I said facial tattoos might be scary.

when asked to explain this you guys said it was racist because some Māori have them (although this is a British site and there are very few facially tattooed Māori in the UK).

so you appropriated a culture in service of your attempt to prove me “racist”.

and then scold me for reminding you that your bog policy may well be discriminatory to some non western cultures.

pathetic. You guys.

Absolutely. Narc supply.

pppppppllleeeaaseeeee! bite. I want MOOOOOOORRREEEEE.

SQQUUUEEEAAAaaaallllll.

ATEEEENNTION.

You lost guys

Whilst this is true, and everyone can see it. I do think there's a benefit to revealing exactly how transactivism works, alongside misogyny.

I, personally, and I know you too, have seen these arguments over, and over. Including the two spirit people (I wonder if they know how often they are invoked by middle-aged men in order to be validated by violating women's boundaries).

But there are always new people who haven't seen this played out. And I do think it's useful sometimes.

if thunder is getting a supply out of this, it's massively outweighed by other people's enlightenment, in my opinion.

Perhaps, Datun. But it does get boring.

Nobody else thinks that it is a competition.

True.

We could try a round of Mornington Crescent? she says hopefully

Including the two spirit people (I wonder if they know how often they are invoked by middle-aged men in order to be validated by violating women's boundaries).

Then there are the first nation scholars who have pointed out how embedded misogyny and homophobia are in the cultures that have a two spirit tradition. It's all about denying status (and food, in emergency situations) to same-sex attracted men. Who nonetheless do get more food and status than women.

No. You really don't seem to get this.

You have been making statements that have politicised people's protected characteristics. YOU are introducing these points into this thread. No one else.

What you are now doing is another example of DARVO. It is an abusive tactic.

If you cannot make your statements without politicising other peoples race, religion, medical conditions, or sexual orientation, you are the issue.

Readers can see it. We can see it. Why can't you?

You're the one who brought up facial tattoos, you're the one who brought up butch lesbians, you're the one who brought up two spirit people, you're the one who brought up shitting men, injured men, you're the one who brought up what if someone doesn't have a penis and why don't you take a look.

Quite ironic really, given the op was trying to find middle ground 🤣

I've said it a million times, there is no greater promoter of gender critical feminism, that a Transactivist. The foot shooting never ends

Would you like to go first?

https://www.ihs.gov/lgbt/health/twospirit/#:~:text=Two%2Dspirit%20people%20typically%20formed,bestow%20this%20luck%20on%20others.

Traditionally, Native American two-spirit people were male, female, and sometimes intersexed individuals who combined activities of both men and women with traits unique to their status as two-spirit people. In most tribes, they were considered neither men nor women; they occupied a distinct, alternative gender status. In tribes where two-spirit males and females were referred to with the same term, this status amounted to a third gender. In other cases, two-spirit females were referred to with a distinct term and, therefore, constituted a fourth gender.

That is to say, that a two-spirit person does not claim to be the opposite sex of their birth sex, and to have the single-sex rights accruing to that opposite sex, but to have a completely different gender.

Third spaces now!

Well, that was one of the disorders that I wasn't going to mention in case of deletion.

Dear undecided lurkers, remember what I said about some male humans and their escalating urge for more intense stimulus?

The early frissons have faded away, so the pursuit of the same "high" requires increasingly frantic activity 🧐

Can you see it yet?

Given that we've all been accused of various things, insulted, misgendered etc repeatedly on this thread, I would be somewhat pissed off if any women got deletions.

Sometimes I think MN are enthusiastic supporters of Let Them Speak.

So the answer seems to be there is no middle ground.

It would be interesting to actually find some middle ground- I’m very much The Middle Way myself, if I were proposing suggestions it would be create a third, safe space for anyone who doesn’t want to use spaces with others of the same sex plus all the allies who want to show support/solidarity with a big push to get men to accept transwomen and learn to be kinder to men who are different from themselves.

it would not be easy maybe, but long term the benefits to society would be worth it, I think.