How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Oh yes

”It’s really funny how you” cannot engage with any post beyond a one line quip, yet feel you are 'winning'. (I can assure you that from where I come from you are indeed a 'winner'!)

In fact

”It’s really funny how you” don't seem to be able to recognise DARVO at all. Abusers and others (sometimes those abused) often don't but I suggest you look it up if you don't understand what I mean.

I also suggest you stop trying to deflect about it. Because it really does add to the feeling on the whole that you have no fucking idea of what you are talking about most of the time on this thread.

I know I've reminded you once already, thunder, but mumsnet is the biggest gathering of women in history.

Among our members, we have positively loads of doctors, surgeons, chemists, physicians, biologists and psychiatrists. Plus of course lawyers, authors, journalists and judges. You can't shake a stick for academics.

And, it's rumoured, royalty.

The sexism involved in imagining otherwise is, of course, tediously common amongst TRAs.

The real giveaway being they never see it in their own posts. A fish not knowing it's wet and all that.

Lol - Taylor swift has a lot more women following her on Insta than congregate on MN.

fail.

Hahaha!! I'm pointing out the reason why the women on here know what they're talking about, despite you being unfamiliar with the terms, is because they are qualified to do so, and you're coming back with Taylor Swift fans!

Got it.

Makes no sense

@Namechange2468109 you couldn't pay for this PR.

My comment got deleted?? Can you clarify what was offensive about it….

Namechange2468109

I knew your post would be reported, so I screenshotted it. Let me know if you want a copy. And I'll also tell you which bit had to be censored so you can rewrite it if you want to.

Ah brill- good to know the boundaries and yes please do I will rewrite removing the bit I assume was reported (let me guess who by!)

Alternatively, you can report the deleted post to mumsnet asking why. And they'll tell you.

And you can reword the bits that weren't liked.

My comment was about our favourite poster boy @GodessOfThunder and totally in support of you.

Sorry yes I got that thank you- it was to help me understand what will get me reported so I can refrain from that- I am new to posting but been a long time reader

I've sent you a PM Namechange2468109

Me. I am just waiting now for a flounce with a poster telling us all in a letter about how unkind we are, how we should 'safeguard' but "you can't discount scale as a dimension", how our posts lack "grace and kindness", and how we as a 'cohort' will "I suspect it will wither over the next decade", and that "banning all transgender people from traditionally female only spaces which smacks of extremism".

If it is NOT this thread, I suspect it will be soon.

@GodessOfThunder I assume you reported my previous post. But will try and paraphrase.

1. What is the motivation for so trawling threads unrelated to you to make childish arguments. Given the time you have spare and use of ‘hilaire’ and ‘lolz’ I assume you are either a teenager or a middle aged man? Do you not have a job? Friends? A life?

2. I’d love a genuine non antagonistic answer to why you’ve responded to my opening post in the way you have. I was trying to be open, and genuinely wanted to listen as to both sides of the argument. Had you provided a rational, empathetic and scientific argument I genuinely would have listened, pondered and researched further. I was looking for an intellectual debate.

What you have achieved is an incredible own goal.

I actually thought you were a tween or a pensioner age male from your language.

funny old world, eh?

Can I suggest that readers might like to read more about how some extreme trans activists dismiss fetishs this thread is very interesting.

There is one poster on this thread that felt that Furries in Ikea were no big deal at all. They too didn't recognise safeguarding issues and iirc attempted to shame women using similar tactics when they pointed out safeguarding issues and fetishes.

Well worth a read if you are undecided about how some male people will work very hard to dismiss women's concerns.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4721160-furries-in-ikea?page=10&reply=123131588

As for 'middle ground' - I know some don't think there can be one ( given the intransigence of trans activists)....but in my view it will eventually come down to the court, and judgement, of popular public opinion - which will inevitably be for third spaces, services and categories. This is already established as a principle with sports bodies now already starting to implement 'open' categeories, and some new buildings having third 'gender neutral' facilities.

Meanwhile, we continue to stand for the truth of practical and biological reality - and keep pushing back agaiunst the colonising instinct and drive of the gender theorists and ideologues.

Just finished watching, for a second time ' Daughters Of Destiny' on Netflix - which features a aschool set up in Tamil Nadu for the children of Dalit ( untouchable) families. The series focuses on the girls and how they have to struggle to meet and confront what their societal position has in store for them. Such a sobering, yet hopeful, story.

There is no middle ground for me. If you were a man, you are a man. I don't care what operations you've had, I don't care what hormones you've taken, I don't care what high end women's clothes, makeup, hairstyle you have. I don't care how feminine you look. You are a man. I will not be bullied into accepting those men as women. Or, in the case of F to M 'transitioners' vice versa.

I will not be bullied into believing anything, especially not when scientific fact confirms that I am right. You cannot 'transition' - you are simply a man in a dress. I don't care if it hurts their feelings - it's not my job to protect them. It is, however, my job to protect women's rights, as it is all of us who were born with a vagina and female genetics.

I will not be bullied into calling a trans person by whatever pronouns they feel they should use. Thats not my job either.

I will not accept the pre-fix or Cis either. I will challenge it every time I hear it.

Proving your point Namechange2468109 and that if your deleted comment

Oh, and it is not hard to tell who was male on the thread I posted either.

Of course, all of that....which is what i mean about pushing back. But another fact is that many people have become caught up in it, and it has infiltrated our institutions and organisations. It is going to take decades to unravel - though it will eventually of its own accord. On that basis, I see 'third spaces' as a necessary and preactical solution in the interim. Third spaces recognise the facts of difference for a start. -and maintain the integrity of women's spaces and categories.