How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

that is your argument?

Blimey....

Politicising people's protected characteristics to leverage male people's access to female single sex space is 'hilarious'.

You really are doing a great job on this thread.

If you’re going to play that game then it’s racist to ban “transsexuals” from women’s bogs. Because there are numerous cultures around the world that have traditions not aligned to the western sex/gender binary.

You are racist against two-sprit people and the Yoruba tradition. Racist!

Guys you just dug your own hole there.

Chalking up another win ;)

'guys' 'bogs' 'vindaloo'

I had thought you might be a teenager using your mother's account. But I'm now leaning more towards the 'middle aged man'.

Which makes the whole debacle even more cringeworthy.

The Yoruba do not have a tradition of two-spirit people. That is something a few American first nation cultures have.

Maori women are (mostly) extremely critical of western ideas of gender.

According to the Muslim Council of Great Britain: Amongst the 2.7m Muslims in the UK in 2011, about two-thirds (68%) are of Asian/Asian British descent (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi). About 272,000 (10%) are from black ethnic groups, 210,600 (8%) are from white ethnic groups and 178,000 (6%) are Arab. Non-census studies estimate larger numbers for some ethnic groups, due to possible non-uniform use of the ‘Other’ tick boxes.

On those grounds, your refusal to consider your discrimination against Muslim women is 92% racist. And of course it's sexist and discriminatory against a particular religious group as well, but you don't appear to care about either of these issues.

Do you understand the cultural elements that you are attempting to leverage here?

Hey can we all sit around cracking one off at home, whilst thinking of increasingly stupid gotchas about who has access to the ladies toilets / other single sex spaces.

What if it was a man dressed as a vampire and had a puking bug?
What if it was the pope holding a sermon in the sanctity of the porcelin?
What if it was a woman had once accidentally shop lifted?
What if it was a man who aliens had injected with an unknown substance that turned all their XY chromosomes to XX?
What if it was a pregant man who'd had a successful womb transplant?
But look at this story about a woman who identified as a goat, isn't that disguisting, why aren't you disguisted by her too?

What if, what if....

Oh do fuck off.

The answer remains the same SEX matters and men are still men.

If men have a problem with other men, how about men sort it out between them cos women are sick of cleaning up men problems for them. Wipe your own arses. Vindaloo or no vindaloo.

Women are not support humans.

Yes.

Incidentally, Rex's articulated anger can be very impressive from what I remember of her consultation message!

I might add that in cultures where there is a "two spirit" tradition, the people who claim that identity do not claim to be of a sex other than the sex they were born in.

@GodessOfThunder Regarding your comment about ‘getting ….spelling in order.’

What you are referring to is grammar, not spelling.

I often find that people who are easily confused about one thing are also prone to confusion elsewhere 😉

Yes - much better than you do

Read again - I never said they did

I'm still waiting for the DSD which makes a woman appear male.

None of that changes the fact Muslims aren’t a race.

You haven't got a clue. You are speaking to people who come from these cultures.

Mumsnet has 12 million unique users. Per month.

I’ve often thought the same about you - a man - from your posts - although older - bus pass age

And you have no idea what culture I am from.

Can you tell us which of the cultures you have just appropriated for your political cause were fully accepting of homosexuality please?

Or were when those cultural elements came into being to be more precise?

Escalation...

No. Because it’s irrelevant to the point

Then what Yoruba tradition were you referring to when, at 16.16 you said;

You are racist against two-sprit people and the Yoruba tradition. Racist!

No. I think you will find it is not irrelevant at all.

it’s an “and”

Two spirit = Native American. Didn’t you know? Lots on the web.