How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

I don't think there's any going back to the old fudging of boundaries. Women's spaces, sports, prizes, scholarships, awards should be for women only. Blurring that even a little bit opens the doors to all sorts of piss-taking men.

Defining terms is crucial here, what’s a transsexual person?

I don’t think I ever thought is was ok for male ‘transexuals’ to use women’s toilets for example. And they certainly weren’t trying to compete in women’s sports as far as I know.

I think the only reason I would never have objected (to the toilet situation) per se is out of fear and not wanting to make a scene. I’d have just quickly scurried out and warned other women as best I could.

When one group decides that their way is the only way, there can be no middle ground.

How can you find a middle ground between

"my rights are whatever I want and only my rights matter",

and

"everybody has rights and the rights of the vulnerable to be safeguarded come first"

?

There is no middle ground and I don't think its for women to concede their own rights to create a middle ground to provide privilege to any group of men. The concessions I was once willing to make have been destroyed

What does middle ground mean? No rights to privacy and safety fir young girls? No rights for the sick or the elderly? My oersonal middle ground is respecting pronouns for the transwomen I know but only recognising them as transwomen, they are not women.

I don't think it was ever OK for males to use female spaces either. Now we're all more aware of the particular problems it causes women with trauma and women from orthodox religions, we can't unsee that and give some males a pass. We could create some unisex facilities, but that's hardly a solution since most trans people don't want to use them and their development often takes existing space from women or disabled people. Unisex spaces are also less safe for women. Acceptance of gender nonconformity, especially by the male sex, is what needs to happen. And re-establishment of the taboo on males entering female spaces.

If there ever was a middle ground, we were in it. Women’s rights were slightly compromised, but that was weighed against perceived benefits to what we understood was a tiny group of distressed men with a rare mental health condition.

Unfortunately, activists were never genuinely aiming for that apparent balance. It was always part of an ongoing plan to dominate, expanding that “right” from that tiny group (transsexual men) first to include transvestites (hence the change of terminology to transgender) and then to anyone who wanted it (self-ID).

It’s obvious that those in power were conned into removing women’s rights, assuming that the terms presented initially were the end game, rather than merely the wedge in the door.

So there is no middle ground and never was. It was a carefully constructed mirage.

Acceptance of gender nonconformity, especially by the male sex, is what needs to happen. And re-establishment of the taboo on males entering female spaces.

I agree.

Well said PriOn1. The middle ground, which we sort of muddled along with, was not enough for the ideologues - and we can't go back there now.

‘I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.’

Just wanted to point out this bit - this was liberal feminism. Society made us believe that all these things were equal, our choice and feminist - it wasn’t.

Laddette culture? - suited the patriarchy, achieve what you want in your career whilst having a family, sleep with whoever you want to - you are sexually liberated after all , don’t complain because everything that happens to you is your choice - no matter what your socio-economic status. Who does being sexually liberated (if you are heterosexual), serve?

Sexist banter in the office - you can shrug this off, you are a liberated woman.

You can do anything you want - you can be successful career wise, at home, have a family life - if you’re not successful at everything then that’s your choice, in fact it probably means you’re inadequate (as other women are managing it).

Sex ‘work’/porn - you are equal to men, it’s your choice - you’re sexually liberated remember?! No matter what your socio-economic status.

I honestly believe that a man came up with the idea that it’s only women that can multitask- if we couldn’t then we were shit examples of womanhood. It suited them that we could multitask. We had everything, why for the love of god can’t we multitask!

In the 90s, it was to the advantage of men for us to believe that we were liberated and every action and reaction was because of our choices - we were hoodwinked.

Many of us thought we’d won the war in the 90s, but we were so very wrong, I remember posh spice being weighed live on TFI Friday only 2 months after giving birth….we were no way liberated.

Andrea Dworkin said: “Women will come back to feminism, because things are going to get far, far worse for us before they get better.”

Sorry, I’m really grumpy tonight.

I don’t want to go back to the old ‘fudge’ that existed - nobody in the medical profession took women’s needs into consideration when they told men who wanted access to surgery/hormones/GRC to prove their commitment by using women’s spaces and services. The GRA didn’t sufficiently take into account the needs of wives and children, or women/society at large.

I want full rights and protections for women and children to be secured. I don’t see a compromise allowing that to happen.

Thanks, this actually makes totally sense with what I was thinking but said much more articulately

I am another who didn’t ever think it was ok for any male to be in a female toilet. And who thinks there is no going back to women being ignorant that it was happening.

Middle ground needs to be defined but who gets to do this?

There's no middle ground between 'transwomen are women' and 'transwomen are men', because one of those statements is true and one of them isn't. As for rights... trans people have the same rights as everyone else. The only middle ground I think would be possible or helpful is third spaces, and third categories in sport, to avoid conflicts with women's rights, safety and fair competition.

I think part of the problem, I think, is that gender nonconformity for men has never really been okay. I think part of what's going on is a rejection of male nonconformity, by men and women. Rejection doesn't just mean hatred, that's just the sharpest end of the rejection spectrum of behaviours and attitudes.it goes all the way down to "oh that's cute, I need to be nice but not taking that seriously"

Yes I'm generalising and yes there are exceptions, including exceptions that are cool/wonderful/desirable etc but exceptions and curiousity is all they are. There's a reason why so many acceptable insults and jokes to put men down and humiliate them is various ways of comparing them to or calling them a woman. Something that only really works as an insult because ... I'll let others finish that sentence.

Would it be as difficult a problem to solve if we didn't have so many problems of male violence and abuse from men who were absolutely 100% certain they were men? This is the group most responsible for the actual problems IMO It's almost ironic to see men seeking control of women's reproductive rights ranting about transwomen 🤔

Once the sexually motivated men took over and persuaded Stonewall to add the T and promote men's sex rights it fell apart.
You just have to follow the money.

They never answer what grown men and young girls have in common other their 'identity'.
Or why the men can be women just by saying the words, whilst the teens need drugs and surgery asap.

There is no middle ground.
Our children need to stop being sold lies and sex needs to be acknowledged. The rest of society shouldn't have to pretend a man is a woman because he doesn't like the fact he's a man.

I think the wake up for me was less based on specific rights (now I feel embarrassed saying that) but the minute science was muted and we were all forced to say black was white was a hard no.

I guess as someone that’s always tried to be reasonably left/liberal thinking I try to view a middle ground and see the outliers (people not taking the piss) but when that ocean opens up I guess you have to take a stance

I understand what you’re saying about male gender nonconformity but most of this current problem isn’t being caused by male gender nonconformity, it’s being caused by men who want to live a fetish/perform it in public and to have the legal right to do so, as well as the legal right to prevent anyone from being able to stop them.

This is a really helpful way of seeing things differently. Maybe I didn’t have the multitask aspect as I never wanted children. But definitely a good way to have my beliefs challenged (gratefully)

No middle ground.
Transactivists have ensured that women will not compromise or negotiate now.

There is no middle ground

We redefine sex as biological and women get their spaces and sports back

Children become free from indoctrination

I think we do have the middle ground now, society is moving forward with gender neutral spaces and acceptance of GRA. The back lash will eventually disappear as it become more normal.

Maybe sport will move to something less sexual and more biological like weight categories.

Honestly I would have always said I was female but now I'm more likely to select prefer not to say. Not because I feel like I want to be what socially defines a man but more I don't feel like I need to be defined as woman or a man. I'm just me sleepyscientist a human, I would much rather be ask for my genotype in medical settings and lose man vs woman in everything else.

Middle ground? No. Middle ground means that women must give up their rights.

I refuse to be called cis, a birthing person, to have a vagina called a front hole. To have distinct parts of being female extinguished by males.

I very much hope not.

”Maybe sport will move to something less sexual and more biological like weight categories.”

Unfortunately, ‘weight categories’ will not work to equate males with females. The science is already out there and proven. It can never be ‘fair’ to allow any male to compete in most sports with female people. No ‘handicaps’, no ‘weight’ divisions, nothing.