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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 21:21

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 21:16

I think there's plenty of evidence now that schools are socially transitioning children without parents' knowledge. It's even in the new NHSE guidance that schools shouldn't be doing this without involving the parents so it's obviously happening. If schools are prepared to lie to the child's own parents on this matter then they are not going to have any qualms about lying to another child's parents.

Yes. Again completely. My answer was of course to the poster calling me a conspiracy theorist for saying that a school official would lie about the sex of a child- just in case that wasn’t clear.

We are now told repeatedly that people in particular positions absolutely cannot disclose sex to others. It seems though that some posters are not really understanding this issue.

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 21:30

Yes. We are
Your opinion.

No we're not
My opinion.
You see how this works?
You don't speak for everyone.

And that you are so desperate for male approval that you would pull out the old "you're just insecure, you need to accept whatever men push at you because otherwise you're insecure" is you doing the "pick me" dance and hoping for approval from the very people who are telling you that girl's and women's rights don't matter.
😂

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 21:34

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 21:21

Yes. Again completely. My answer was of course to the poster calling me a conspiracy theorist for saying that a school official would lie about the sex of a child- just in case that wasn’t clear.

We are now told repeatedly that people in particular positions absolutely cannot disclose sex to others. It seems though that some posters are not really understanding this issue.

Yes sorry I should have quoted TrailingLoellia rather than you.

The idea that it is conspiratorial to doubt the truthfulness of schools, when it comes to gender identity issues, is just demonstrably wrong.

Right I'm off for the evening. Thanks all for the interesting discussion.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 28/09/2023 21:37

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:57

I totally agree. We don’t know for sure and we said as much to the girls.

my SIL has always been very keen to ensure that her daughter understands that girls can have short hair and boys long hair etc. That certain clothes don’t mean you are a boy or girl.

but the girls were absolutely adamant that they knew it was a boy.

I believe them.
Girls need to be believed.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 21:45

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 28/09/2023 21:37

I believe them.
Girls need to be believed.

Unless they are girls that get misgendered because those girls are “collateral damage”

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 21:57

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 21:03

No. Just realistic. I happen to have children with trans identities in my daily life and I know that school officials will indeed lie about the sex of a child. Do you think that school officials are free to discuss a child’s sex when that child has had their school record changed? If that school official even would know this?

But do please keep trying to tell us that no school official would lie. That is like trying to tell me that girl guiding leaders were freely allowed to discuss the sex of a girl guide with parents concerned with accommodation for away trips. Ie. No. They were not.

I knew this would go down the route of implying all school officials (and apparently girl guides) have been captured by the TRA mafia and are all liars.

It is highly unlikely that the parents and school officials and race organisers would lie.

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 22:00

Unless they are girls that get misgendered because those girls are “collateral damage”
Yes
Believe girls
(No, not those ones though....)

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 22:14

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 21:57

I knew this would go down the route of implying all school officials (and apparently girl guides) have been captured by the TRA mafia and are all liars.

It is highly unlikely that the parents and school officials and race organisers would lie.

I don’t believe you understand what you are talking about. I know of instances at my own child’s school, with my own child’s close friends. I have also been a helper with our girl guide group.

Your continued denial that it happens is fine. But calling people conspiracy theorists is not going to change the reality of the current situation. Neither is the hyperbolic accusations about my implying any group is ”TRA Mafia” that people who are out in situations where they cannot disclose are “all liars”.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 22:29

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 22:14

I don’t believe you understand what you are talking about. I know of instances at my own child’s school, with my own child’s close friends. I have also been a helper with our girl guide group.

Your continued denial that it happens is fine. But calling people conspiracy theorists is not going to change the reality of the current situation. Neither is the hyperbolic accusations about my implying any group is ”TRA Mafia” that people who are out in situations where they cannot disclose are “all liars”.

I don’t believe you know what you are talking about either as it seems that you are objecting to things I did not say, so are not really engaging in close reading of my posts. I didn’t say no school official would ever lie, nor did I say it never happens and yet those are your bones of contention with me.

I did say your view was a bit conspiracy theory because you have alleged that after the sex of the winner was asked about (which I am all for despite you and others misstating that I am not), you decided that the answer that came back must have been a lie involving lots of liars all long the chain of communication.

What is the point of raising questions as to whether a winner at primary sports day is a boy or a girl if you are just going to assume that you’re going to be lied to by everyone involved?

The number of 9yr old transgirls is exponentially fewer than the number of tom boy girls who get misgendered. The number of parents, school officials and race organisers who are pathological liars would similarly be a very small %.

So the likelihood it must have been a transgirl (boy) who won the race and everyone lied about it too instead of a tom boy being misgendered is miniscule.

fuckssaaaaake · 28/09/2023 22:54

I may have missed this, sorry if I have. But was the child running as themselves (ie a boy running in the race so an actual mixed sex race) or a boy presenting as a girl so the competition see them as identifying as a girl? Just because if it was just a mixed sex race, and a boy was just in that race with girls that's not as bad as if a boy presenting as a girl won the race. Not sure I'm articulating myself well

fuckssaaaaake · 28/09/2023 22:57

Actually please disregard my post, hadn't read how volatile this was getting and I can't be arsed getting into anything

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 00:05

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 22:29

I don’t believe you know what you are talking about either as it seems that you are objecting to things I did not say, so are not really engaging in close reading of my posts. I didn’t say no school official would ever lie, nor did I say it never happens and yet those are your bones of contention with me.

I did say your view was a bit conspiracy theory because you have alleged that after the sex of the winner was asked about (which I am all for despite you and others misstating that I am not), you decided that the answer that came back must have been a lie involving lots of liars all long the chain of communication.

What is the point of raising questions as to whether a winner at primary sports day is a boy or a girl if you are just going to assume that you’re going to be lied to by everyone involved?

The number of 9yr old transgirls is exponentially fewer than the number of tom boy girls who get misgendered. The number of parents, school officials and race organisers who are pathological liars would similarly be a very small %.

So the likelihood it must have been a transgirl (boy) who won the race and everyone lied about it too instead of a tom boy being misgendered is miniscule.

Edited

This has been the progression of your argument around what information can and is likely to be given out by the school. 

First questioning the disbelief expressed by people.

”I’m all for parents raising concerns and inquiring discretely but why the disbelief when the answer was the winner was a girl?”

And 

Then came the accusations and hyperbole.

So you are saying that all those school officials lied to a parent? and the children? Bit of a conspiracy theory there.

Apparently, ‘all these school officials’ need to be ‘lying’.  Yet it only needs one person to not disclose the truth. One school official to not be able to disclose the fact about this child’s sex. Not their gender.  Their sex. Technically it may be classed as a ‘lie’ but then again, the school may not be able to disclose the child’s sex. 

And as I pointed out, that lack of honesty about sex is happening and yes, schools are indeed not even being truthful with a child’s own parents about gender. Or with other children. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that this may be the case. No matter how you try to convince people otherwise.

The sports official who checked for the parent is indeed likely to have simply relayed the information.  They may have known if the child was male, but as I pointed out even those with responsibilities but are not part of a school may still not be able to disclose the sex of the child. Just the gender for the purposes of the race if it was applicable. 

So, no. Not ‘all’. But as I said, it only takes one person at the school to not be able to disclose.

And then came more hyperbole. 

I knew this would go down the route of implying all school officials (and apparently girl guides) have been captured by the TRA mafia and are all liars.

It is highly unlikely that the parents and school officials and race organisers would lie.

Now you are saying:

I didn’t say no school official would ever lie, nor did I say it never happens

No.  You have tried to say though that it is highly unlikely to happen while using exaggeration to support whatever your point actually is.  You seem to acknowledge that you understand that a school official may be unable to disclose sex, or lie as you seem to be insistent that I have said, but just want to make out that it so far fetched that people are conspiracy theorists if they say it could happen.

You have also misrepresented what I have said. 

I did say your view was a bit conspiracy theory because you have alleged that after the sex of the winner was asked about (which I am all for despite you and others misstating that I am not), you decided that the answer that came back must have been a lie involving lots of liars all long the chain of communication.

Please tell me what part of where I said it was a ‘distinct possibility’ (still just a possibility though!), with examples of times when school officials have been limited in what they disclose about children and examples of how girl guide leaders are similarly limited,  is me stating that the school definitely lied about the sex of the child? and so did other people lie as well?

You seem very fixated on the word ‘lie’! I believe you are using it as a tactic to portray my opinion, and other’s opinion, as unreasonable.  Through dishonestly misrepresenting what I have said.  It is an emotive word to keep using and is not actually appropriate. I am talking about the child’s sex not gender identity.  The school is not reported as saying the child was ‘female’, just that the child was a ‘girl’.

No post on this thread have I “decided that the answer that came back must have been a lie involving lots of liars all long the chain of communication.” I said it was possible.  And you now seem to acknowledge that you cannot say definitively that it would never happen. 

To answer why bother asking in the first place? You never know, an error could have been made. It is always worth checking. 

And finally, we are back again to the “lies”.

The number of parents, school officials and race organisers who are pathological liars would similarly be a very small %.

So the likelihood it must have been a transgirl (boy) who won the race and everyone lied about it too instead of a tom boy being misgendered is miniscule.

Can you tell the difference between an accusation of ‘lying’ and a statement that a school may not be able to disclose the sex of a child?  

All we know is that confirmation came through that the child was in the correct race for that event. That the child was a ‘girl’. Not that the child was ‘female’. If that child has a gender identity, from the reported answer there was no lie. 

All the continued hyperbole about % of pathological liars is irrelevant.  

And so is your estimation of the likely sex of the child, in my opinion. You don’t know. I don’t know. The OP doesn’t know. 

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 00:08

fuckssaaaaake · 28/09/2023 22:54

I may have missed this, sorry if I have. But was the child running as themselves (ie a boy running in the race so an actual mixed sex race) or a boy presenting as a girl so the competition see them as identifying as a girl? Just because if it was just a mixed sex race, and a boy was just in that race with girls that's not as bad as if a boy presenting as a girl won the race. Not sure I'm articulating myself well

Don’t worry, you have articulated yourself just fine.

It was reported as a female event. Not mixed sex. No one knows what sex the child is. Isn’t it concerning that there is so much lack of trust that girls are concerned about the fairness of their races at primary school?

GodessOfThunder · 29/09/2023 08:04

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RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:25

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:45

What? I was constantly on the monkey bars as a girl…climbing trees with boys develops those muscles. I could do 30 full pull ups at that age too. It’s not sex that makes boys go with ease over monkey bars, but practice. Any girl who does gymnastics on the uneven bars would go just as easy too.

I am aware of that. I was a sporty child, myself - and have a daughter and now a granddaughter. What I'm expressing is what we saw - which was an obvious boy child being presented as a girl. What was most interessting, as a I said, was that such obvious sex based difference could be so early on witnessed - even in younger children.

I'm sorry my experinece doesn't tally with your idealistic based thinking.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:30

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:23

The girls sex was questioned and the answer came back she was a girl. I have no issue with questions or inquiries. My issue is with the point blank refusal to accept the answer to the question after being told by the people in the know that a girl is a girl.

You don't know either, you are just trying to retro-fit the incident to fit your preferred narrative. You seem to have a habit of disbelieveing what people say, and questioning their judgments, as if they are totally stupid, insensitive or unaware.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:34

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 18:51

One of my kids was at primary school with a girl who went on to compete for Britain in the Olympics. She was tall, good at any sport she tried, she was slim but muscular. She could beat the boys at anything but she was still a girl. I think passing the tests for the Olympics proves that.

There are reasons why at Olympic level males and females do a few different gymnastic events ( apart from floor events) - and they are the ones that tend to revolve around superior upper body strength in males.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:40

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:58

Exactly. I’m sure Simone Biles flew across the monkey bars as a girl.

So does my granddaughter and any number of other girls I observe.....but there is a reason that Simone Biles does not compete in the male categories - no matter how agile and muscular she may be on the beam.

Even at quite a young age there can be quite pronounced and obvious sex differences

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:41

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:21

Oh, yes sports day at primary schools affects the rate of prison rape. How could I have not seen that? Talk about desperate parallels.

There are lost of things you clearly cannot see.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:44

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 19:22

What I find odd in the OP’s account is that the child in question is described by OP as an obvious boy who is presenting in a typically boyish way and standing with all the other boys. But upon enquiry a parent was told this obvious boy was in fact a girl. This is so far from the normal “trans” narrative especially for that age of child. Without fail EVERY story of a “trans girl” of that age involves a little boy who likes pink, plays with dolls and wants to wear their hair long. This account doesn’t fit that narrative and I wonder if that’s why people are asking questions. It’s a bit unusual isn’t it?

Edited

What I find odd is your immediate bad faith take on the OP's opening post.

Signalbox · 29/09/2023 09:49

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:44

What I find odd is your immediate bad faith take on the OP's opening post.

Erm please explain how my take is bad faith rather than just throwing accusations or I will assume that you are in bad faith.

I have not said anything about the OP’s account that the OP hasn’t stated in her own posts.

My view is that for most primary aged children being “trans” is about adopting the stereotypical behaviours and appearance of the other sex. This is clearly not the situation in OP’s account.

I have to say I thought my view about trans and stereotypes was not a particularly controversial one but this thread has shown me that I am wrong on that. Hellofabore pointed out that this boy (if it was a boy) may have been at the start of his transition or just adopting a more boyish style which are good points. But for me this case doesn’t very easily fit the trans narrative of a primary aged “trans” child.

If you think my argument is a poor one that’s fine but perhaps you can at least try and articulate why rather than trying to undermine me by making out I’m arguing in bad faith.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 09:54

Signalbox · 29/09/2023 09:49

Erm please explain how my take is bad faith rather than just throwing accusations or I will assume that you are in bad faith.

I have not said anything about the OP’s account that the OP hasn’t stated in her own posts.

My view is that for most primary aged children being “trans” is about adopting the stereotypical behaviours and appearance of the other sex. This is clearly not the situation in OP’s account.

I have to say I thought my view about trans and stereotypes was not a particularly controversial one but this thread has shown me that I am wrong on that. Hellofabore pointed out that this boy (if it was a boy) may have been at the start of his transition or just adopting a more boyish style which are good points. But for me this case doesn’t very easily fit the trans narrative of a primary aged “trans” child.

If you think my argument is a poor one that’s fine but perhaps you can at least try and articulate why rather than trying to undermine me by making out I’m arguing in bad faith.

Quite often people who open a post with words like. 'Odd" or 'Strange' come across as questioning the veracity of the poster in question - as if they are somehow lying, or distorting a situation for effect or attention.

This happens across all social media platforms, not just here....and i always find it very disrespectful.

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 09:58

And posters who start off their response to a post with phrases such as " What!" come across as downright rude and aggressive. Starting off a post in an unnecessarily confrontational way.

I tend to assume good faith of most of the posters on this forum, and there are far better ways to challenge a point or discuss an issue than through downright disrespect or rudeness.

GodessOfThunder · 29/09/2023 09:59

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 09:58

And posters who start off their response to a post with phrases such as " What!" come across as downright rude and aggressive. Starting off a post in an unnecessarily confrontational way.

I tend to assume good faith of most of the posters on this forum, and there are far better ways to challenge a point or discuss an issue than through downright disrespect or rudeness.

Uh?

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 10:02

GodessOfThunder · 29/09/2023 09:59

Uh?

See 'Training loelia' above....very aggressive and dismisive.

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