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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 29/09/2023 10:14

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 09:54

Quite often people who open a post with words like. 'Odd" or 'Strange' come across as questioning the veracity of the poster in question - as if they are somehow lying, or distorting a situation for effect or attention.

This happens across all social media platforms, not just here....and i always find it very disrespectful.

But I quite clearly am not doing that. Perhaps you should have read past the word “odd” to see what point I was actually making.

I said it was “odd” because in my experience of reading the accounts of young trans children there is almost always a desire in that child to present themselves as the opposite sex and also to have a preference for friendships with the opposite sex.

This account doesn’t conform to that narrative. To me that makes it different (or odd).

At no point have a doubted the OP’s story I have simply highlighted that on occasion in scenarios like this people get it wrong. I can’t fathom why any of this is remotely controversial.

What I am not saying is that “girls should shut up” or that “boys have no advantage in sports” or that “girls shouldn’t learn to assert their boundaries”. And I am not arguing in bad faith. I’ve been perfectly respectful and engaged in this thread all the way through so please stop trying to suggest otherwise.

smilesup · 29/09/2023 10:19

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 18:40

Not sure why pp are insisting this couldn't happen and that people can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl.

This shit is happening everywhere.

I was constantly called a boy aged 10 to 13. I looked like a boy however they are meant to look. I was shouted out of girls toilets, I was told to go with the boys when they split up lessons by new teachers, we convinced my boyfriends 15 year old brother that I was a boy for 6 months!
Not saying this wasn't a bit but it's not always straight forward.
Ps I thank my luck stars that I wasn't born this generation and some nob had decided that I must be a boy because I rejected feminine things.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 12:27


Just to add to the link bank that I posted at the start of the thread, I think adding this video is important after Iwasafools contribution. Particularly the female runner's testimony at 2 minutes.

This is why girls and parents should be encouraged to ask questions and why even at school level girls should have the confidence that the person who is racing with them is female and not male. If all the sporting bodies AND the Department of Education all made the decision that no male person will be included in the female category then no questions would need to be asked.

What is never appropriate is for girls to be told to 'be quiet'. To STFU, eh Iwasafool? Did you even think through that fucking post? But hey, it is all about 'compassion', isn't it? But seemingly never in the direction of women and girls being harmed. And what was it, to point out decisions that people make harm women and girls is zealotry and fucking very unattractive apparently!

Girls being made to feel they need to 'keep quiet' actively discourages them to drop out of sport. And it also sets a precedence. What the fuck else are you inadvertently silencing a child from saying with that 'keep quiet'?

Just fucking NO!

The Inclusion Delusion

Here’s how transgender inclusion is harming women’s sport. All you need to know in less than 6 mins.#SharronDavies #DaleyThompson #MaraYamauchi #fairplayforw...

https://youtu.be/KFQLkDHqf84?feature=shared

GodessOfThunder · 29/09/2023 12:40

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 12:27



Just to add to the link bank that I posted at the start of the thread, I think adding this video is important after Iwasafools contribution. Particularly the female runner's testimony at 2 minutes.

This is why girls and parents should be encouraged to ask questions and why even at school level girls should have the confidence that the person who is racing with them is female and not male. If all the sporting bodies AND the Department of Education all made the decision that no male person will be included in the female category then no questions would need to be asked.

What is never appropriate is for girls to be told to 'be quiet'. To STFU, eh Iwasafool? Did you even think through that fucking post? But hey, it is all about 'compassion', isn't it? But seemingly never in the direction of women and girls being harmed. And what was it, to point out decisions that people make harm women and girls is zealotry and fucking very unattractive apparently!

Girls being made to feel they need to 'keep quiet' actively discourages them to drop out of sport. And it also sets a precedence. What the fuck else are you inadvertently silencing a child from saying with that 'keep quiet'?

Just fucking NO! Edited

What are you on about? The race had 9 year olds in it lol. And no evidence for any gender stuff.

calm down.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 12:53

GodessOfThunder · 29/09/2023 12:40

What are you on about? The race had 9 year olds in it lol. And no evidence for any gender stuff.

calm down.

This entire thread is about a girl questioning whether the race was won by a female or a male athlete? Did you miss the point of the thread entirely?

Or is it just that you believe that at 9 years old that male children on average have physical advantages over female children which is disproved by multiple studies?

Or did you miss the post from Iwasafool where Iwasafool told us they would tell their child to 'be quiet' if that child asked whether the child who won was not female yet racing in the female category?

Good on you though telling women to calm down about discussing fairness in women and girls sports on a feminist board. Well done.

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 21:54

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:25

I am aware of that. I was a sporty child, myself - and have a daughter and now a granddaughter. What I'm expressing is what we saw - which was an obvious boy child being presented as a girl. What was most interessting, as a I said, was that such obvious sex based difference could be so early on witnessed - even in younger children.

I'm sorry my experinece doesn't tally with your idealistic based thinking.

You mean sorry your observations don’t match actual lived experiences.
Monkey bar skills are not “obvious sex based differences” in young children.

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 21:57

RebelliousCow · 29/09/2023 08:30

You don't know either, you are just trying to retro-fit the incident to fit your preferred narrative. You seem to have a habit of disbelieveing what people say, and questioning their judgments, as if they are totally stupid, insensitive or unaware.

It’s not a narrative, that is exactly what the OP said happened. The girls sex was questioned and the response from her school was that she was a girl. Case closed, unless you either think the school is lying or the bollocks narrative a school “cannot disclose the sex of a child”.

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 22:18

@Helleofabore
”You don’t know. I don’t know. The OP doesn’t know.”

It is true no one on this thread knows with 100% certainty. However, when looking at probability, it is most improbable that a child who won a girls race and was confirmed by her school and her parents as being a girl, was somehow a boy (transgirl). You seem to have ignored that tom boys are more numerous than transgirls and have put more faith in what one 9yr old girl thought than what another 9yr old girl, her parents and her school have said for the record to concerned parents like the OP.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 22:25

I have not ignored anything. You, however, seem stuck denying that this could have been a male.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 22:37

Plus you seem to not be able to acknowledge that there is also discussion being had about the lack of trust that parents and children now have. All I have seen is mocking hyperbole about how it is so unlikely to have happened based on your own estimation. I have merely pointed out it could have happened and how it could have happened and the harm of that lack of trust. You just keep dismissing that possibility.

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 22:44

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 22:25

I have not ignored anything. You, however, seem stuck denying that this could have been a male.

Hm. You have ignored this for sure. From my paragraph in the post you wrote a wall of text in response to:
…it seems that you are objecting to things I did not say, so are not really engaging in close reading of my posts. I didn’t say no school official would ever lie, nor did I say it never happens and yet those are your bones of contention with me.

There, hopefully repetition will help you understand that I have not once denied that it could happen. You know this though. You know I have said it is highly unlikely/very improbable that it happened when looking at the facts.

You are quite welcome to cling to your belief that the most unlikely/improbable scenario is what happened, but don’t expect me or others to buy what you are selling.

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 22:53

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 22:37

Plus you seem to not be able to acknowledge that there is also discussion being had about the lack of trust that parents and children now have. All I have seen is mocking hyperbole about how it is so unlikely to have happened based on your own estimation. I have merely pointed out it could have happened and how it could have happened and the harm of that lack of trust. You just keep dismissing that possibility.

Yes, I have discarded that remote possibility in favour of the most likely possibility. Perhaps I am too mathematically inclined and too much a fan of Occam’s razor.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 23:36

I am very aware that you have admitted ‘it could happen’. I posted it in that post you have not addressed at all, despite then the claim that I don’t read you posts.

However, I will just keep repeating that you dismiss via minimising that possibility to be negligible. Why the fuck I don’t know. You seem very keen on exaggerating what I and others say to make a mockery of it. While then keeping on repeating, ‘I never said it could never happen followed by some further hyperbolic claim’. At this point the inconsistency is clear.

Likewise, just keep on repeating it is simply not ‘likely’ due to your estimation to have happened. I will simply keep stating that it is possible and that because it is possible, these questions will continue.

I will also continue to discuss the impact on girls and women on male people competing in their sports categories and the harm of some people of actively silencing girls and women voicing their concerns including through shaming them for even feeling concerned. What you choose to do is irrelevant to me.

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 09:36

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 21:54

You mean sorry your observations don’t match actual lived experiences.
Monkey bar skills are not “obvious sex based differences” in young children.

My experience was very much real and lived. Unprovoked anger such as you tend to express in many of your posts is clearly triggered by the clash of people's lived experineces & observations against the shiny, but brittle edges of your idealism.

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 09:39

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 21:57

It’s not a narrative, that is exactly what the OP said happened. The girls sex was questioned and the response from her school was that she was a girl. Case closed, unless you either think the school is lying or the bollocks narrative a school “cannot disclose the sex of a child”.

What I think is you are very aggressive and unnnecessarily confrontational. There must be a reason for such emotional outbursts. Can you decipher what that trigger, or reason, might be?

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 09:42

TrailingLoellia · 29/09/2023 22:53

Yes, I have discarded that remote possibility in favour of the most likely possibility. Perhaps I am too mathematically inclined and too much a fan of Occam’s razor.

Your social relationships must be fairly fraught if you regularly treat other people as matehmatical puzzles to be dismissed - simply because they don't tally with your working hypothesis.

Signalbox · 30/09/2023 11:12

What I think is you are very aggressive and unnnecessarily confrontational.

Sorry but I can’t help but laugh at the irony of this post 😂

TrailingLoellia · 30/09/2023 11:51

Helleofabore · 29/09/2023 23:36

I am very aware that you have admitted ‘it could happen’. I posted it in that post you have not addressed at all, despite then the claim that I don’t read you posts.

However, I will just keep repeating that you dismiss via minimising that possibility to be negligible. Why the fuck I don’t know. You seem very keen on exaggerating what I and others say to make a mockery of it. While then keeping on repeating, ‘I never said it could never happen followed by some further hyperbolic claim’. At this point the inconsistency is clear.

Likewise, just keep on repeating it is simply not ‘likely’ due to your estimation to have happened. I will simply keep stating that it is possible and that because it is possible, these questions will continue.

I will also continue to discuss the impact on girls and women on male people competing in their sports categories and the harm of some people of actively silencing girls and women voicing their concerns including through shaming them for even feeling concerned. What you choose to do is irrelevant to me.

It is also possible I will be hit by a bus tomorrow, doesn’t make it probable or likely.

Sorry you cannot distinguish between impossible and unlikely. I really thought most people would know the difference and that saying something is unlikely is also agreeing it is possible.

TrailingLoellia · 30/09/2023 11:57

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 09:36

My experience was very much real and lived. Unprovoked anger such as you tend to express in many of your posts is clearly triggered by the clash of people's lived experineces & observations against the shiny, but brittle edges of your idealism.

There is no anger or idealism in my posts as I will continue to say that your sex doesn’t give you more or less monkey bar skills. It is all up to practice through play as a child. Many girls also play on monkey bars and can even beat boys going across them.

It is more idealistic to seriously think and then post so confidently that you can tell a boy from a girl just by how good they are on monkey bars.

SuperNewMe · 30/09/2023 11:59

Anger?! 😕
Blimey
How do you get that the poster is angry?
Unless disagreeing with you is literal anger now

Helleofabore · 30/09/2023 12:08

TrailingLoellia · 30/09/2023 11:51

It is also possible I will be hit by a bus tomorrow, doesn’t make it probable or likely.

Sorry you cannot distinguish between impossible and unlikely. I really thought most people would know the difference and that saying something is unlikely is also agreeing it is possible.

FFS! You might be hit by a bus? I hope not. There are rules and laws in the UK that should reduce that risk so that you are not hit by a bus. There are also laws and rules around participation in sport and who should be included in a race.

The point of the OP was that there was doubt about the rules and doubt about the rules if they were that only female primary schoolers of a specific were allowed to race were being followed. That is what I believe the intention of the OP was, am I correct @MimiSunshine , please correct me if I have got that wrong.

You and I and others have all
agreed it is possible that it could happen. Shall we focus on that and move away from the going-nowhere discussion about the probability of it happening ?

Or do you just want to continue down your path for whatever your motivation is? Which seems to be to label people as ‘bit conspiracy theory’ for pointing out that it could be possible and then point out how it could be possible.

To be clear, if the OP was about being hit by a bus (not you, of course), would you be on the thread telling everyone that the probably is very low so that it is likely that it was just a big van because that had greater possibility? Or would you be joining the discussion whether the laws and policies have changed and maybe people aren’t aware of the changes or that further discussion needs to happen to understand how and why the incident happened?

Helleofabore · 30/09/2023 12:18

Sorry for the typos.

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 13:45

TrailingLoellia · 30/09/2023 11:57

There is no anger or idealism in my posts as I will continue to say that your sex doesn’t give you more or less monkey bar skills. It is all up to practice through play as a child. Many girls also play on monkey bars and can even beat boys going across them.

It is more idealistic to seriously think and then post so confidently that you can tell a boy from a girl just by how good they are on monkey bars.

You have clearly not read my posts in full - you've just launched on the bits that aggravate you.

I said my granddaughter loves monkey bars and yes she's better than some boys her age or even a bit olde; but the boy we saw who was being presented as a girl - was very obviously a boy - and the 'masculinity' of his musculature, body and movement was plain to see......

Which led me to reflect on how sex differences, even at younger ages, can sometimes be quite apparent.

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 13:47

Signalbox · 30/09/2023 11:12

What I think is you are very aggressive and unnnecessarily confrontational.

Sorry but I can’t help but laugh at the irony of this post 😂

Clearly, this post was displaying that my tolerance for unnecessary rudeness has reached its capacity.

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 13:51

The granddaughter I spoke of, above, who is very sporty and plays football, netball, loves climbing and Karate has stopped playing football with the boys at playtime becaused they are just too rough.

Apparently Caster Semenya when at school, was prevented playing football with the girls because she was also " too rough". Even before puberty there are some observable sex based differences - which escalate rapidly at puberty.

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