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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 28/09/2023 18:10

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/09/2023 16:06

Exactly. This is an event run by schools. A few years ago everybody took it for granted that the teachers organising it would have ensured that only girls took part in the girls' races and vice versa. Even if the odd person mistook a girl with short hair for a boy or a boy with long hair for a girl, nobody seeing one of these children in the race would have thought they were in the wrong event, because such a thing was inconceivable.

Precisely

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 18:16

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 17:57

They're derailing. This isn't a thread about these women and their sad hurty feelings. Over something that happened to probably most of us at some point and we got the fuck over it. Certainly wouldn't dream of weaponising my "lived experience" to invalidate the experiences of girls facing the injustice of having their race stolen by a boy.

I couldn’t care less when I am mistaken for male. My feelings remain entirely intact. Discussing the alternative possibilities in a scenario such as the one in the OP isn’t a derail. Constantly accusing other posters of “fuckery” on the other had and misrepresenting their arguments just because they disagree with you…

DoItAgainPlz · 28/09/2023 18:19

Primary aged sports events are often (usually?) mixed sex.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 18:25

especially when the girls are actually in close proximity and know the child in question.

As far as I can see (unless I missed it) the OP has not said that her niece knows the child. It was the first question I asked at the start of the thread. She said the child was from another school.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 28/09/2023 18:26

No, we don’t want to be sore losers, do we, girls?

And so it starts
SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:30

Primary aged sports events are often (usually?) mixed sex
It's an extremely long time since I was at primary but that's what I was trying to remember yesterday, whether it was single sex as I was sure I remember running with the boys too,.memory's hazy though!
Secondary school.was definitely single sex though

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 18:31

DoItAgainPlz · 28/09/2023 18:19

Primary aged sports events are often (usually?) mixed sex.

this event was single sex. It was not mixed sex.

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:33

That photo- has it been cropped as her knees as by somebody else's head?!
It looks like is on a box

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 18:35

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:33

That photo- has it been cropped as her knees as by somebody else's head?!
It looks like is on a box

He’s standing on a podium.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 18:36

Because he took first place in the female category.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 18:36

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:33

That photo- has it been cropped as her knees as by somebody else's head?!
It looks like is on a box

Yes. That male individual, Lia Thomas, is on the first place box for the female championship.

well picked !!!

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:38

Ah, that makes sense, knew must be taller for standing on something, photo didn't look right!

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:45

RebelliousCow · 28/09/2023 15:23

The crucial point, was that his ease ( and style) of movement across the monkey bars was very pronounced.

What? I was constantly on the monkey bars as a girl…climbing trees with boys develops those muscles. I could do 30 full pull ups at that age too. It’s not sex that makes boys go with ease over monkey bars, but practice. Any girl who does gymnastics on the uneven bars would go just as easy too.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 18:49

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 18:38

Ah, that makes sense, knew must be taller for standing on something, photo didn't look right!

I believe that male is reportedly 6 foot 4 inches.

And in real life towers over the female competitors.

And as you know full well, height is a huge advantage in swimming. As is feet and hand size. No female on that podium matches those male proportions.

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 18:51

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:45

What? I was constantly on the monkey bars as a girl…climbing trees with boys develops those muscles. I could do 30 full pull ups at that age too. It’s not sex that makes boys go with ease over monkey bars, but practice. Any girl who does gymnastics on the uneven bars would go just as easy too.

One of my kids was at primary school with a girl who went on to compete for Britain in the Olympics. She was tall, good at any sport she tried, she was slim but muscular. She could beat the boys at anything but she was still a girl. I think passing the tests for the Olympics proves that.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:57

I think since parents asked officials to confirm the winner was a girl and they confirmed it with the school that the winner was a girl, then case closed. The OPs DD most likely mistook a girl for a boy. It’s not that rare of a thing. I’m all for parents raising concerns and inquiring discretely but why the disbelief when the answer was the winner was a girl?

And yes I got “the fuck over” being mistaken for a boy but every time it happened it hurt like hell. It hurt to see friends getting boyfriends, while I was stuck in the friend zone. It hurt to be hit on by girls thinking I was a cute lad. It hurt the day the A level invigilator called me “young man” and my whole class fell about laughing and I wanted to walk out the exam room and I could barely concentrate for the next two hours from the shame of it.

Everyone’s feelings matter in situations like this and girls that look like boys are still girls.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:58

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 18:51

One of my kids was at primary school with a girl who went on to compete for Britain in the Olympics. She was tall, good at any sport she tried, she was slim but muscular. She could beat the boys at anything but she was still a girl. I think passing the tests for the Olympics proves that.

Exactly. I’m sure Simone Biles flew across the monkey bars as a girl.

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:01

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 17:34

in case it hurts the feelings of a hypothetical girl being 'misgendered' - or rather because some of the grown women on MN got sad remembering how one time they got called a boy and this thread is hurting their feelings
The grown women telling you here on MN aren't hypothetical though, and what happened to let women speak?

And yet no one fusses about women's voices when they say inconvenient things like 'my trauma prevents me from having access to this space when a male person enters it'. You can't have it both ways.

Equally, oh gosh how terrible to upset a little girl by briefly misgendering her- but no one cares how she feels when she has to get undressed in front of a boy in her class whether she's willing or not, or when she can't use a toilet all day because they're mixed sex.

Do women and girls' feelings matter always? Or only when it helps males to use females and get what they want?

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:03

And I'm afraid however sad women get about being temporarily mistaken for being boys/men, it does not mean that women should lie down and let male people take all their rights, spaces, and exclude all the women that cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Are your feelings really more important than all women's rights, access and equality?

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:05

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:01

And yet no one fusses about women's voices when they say inconvenient things like 'my trauma prevents me from having access to this space when a male person enters it'. You can't have it both ways.

Equally, oh gosh how terrible to upset a little girl by briefly misgendering her- but no one cares how she feels when she has to get undressed in front of a boy in her class whether she's willing or not, or when she can't use a toilet all day because they're mixed sex.

Do women and girls' feelings matter always? Or only when it helps males to use females and get what they want?

Oh God, listen to the what abouts. Of course we all care about changing rooms and toilets! These aren’t even the subject of the thread.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:08

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:03

And I'm afraid however sad women get about being temporarily mistaken for being boys/men, it does not mean that women should lie down and let male people take all their rights, spaces, and exclude all the women that cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Are your feelings really more important than all women's rights, access and equality?

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:14

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.
Exactly and I believe the phrase I've seen used is "collateral damage"

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 19:15

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 18:57

I think since parents asked officials to confirm the winner was a girl and they confirmed it with the school that the winner was a girl, then case closed. The OPs DD most likely mistook a girl for a boy. It’s not that rare of a thing. I’m all for parents raising concerns and inquiring discretely but why the disbelief when the answer was the winner was a girl?

And yes I got “the fuck over” being mistaken for a boy but every time it happened it hurt like hell. It hurt to see friends getting boyfriends, while I was stuck in the friend zone. It hurt to be hit on by girls thinking I was a cute lad. It hurt the day the A level invigilator called me “young man” and my whole class fell about laughing and I wanted to walk out the exam room and I could barely concentrate for the next two hours from the shame of it.

Everyone’s feelings matter in situations like this and girls that look like boys are still girls.

No. Not really. It is not ‘most likely’ at all that the girls were mistaken.

There is a distinct possibility that the school replied that this child was a girl, yet was actually male.

Sure. This particular case is closed. OP’s sister has not taken it further.

The issue is that there is little trust left. And that if that child was male, they should not have been in that race.

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:15

You can't have it both ways.

If women and girls cannot question the sex - in the face of the gaslighting - in case they accidentally temporarily upset a female - then they just have to accept that males are women and girls. In all circumstances.

How do you intend to protect girls from ever being accidentally mistaken for a boy, AND protect them from boys and men in their toilets and changing rooms and races and refuges? These things are all connected you know?

HoneyBadgerMom · 28/09/2023 19:16

ErrolTheDragon · 27/09/2023 18:48

I don't think the OP has said that the child in question had short hair, some posters are assuming that's what the other children were going on?

Because otherwise everyone would have to acknowledge that this whole "trans the children" push is hurting girls and women. So they call those who point out obvious facts "bigots." They're calling little children "bigots" for recognizing reality.

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