My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:18

Nobody has called little children bigots 🙄

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:18

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 19:15

No. Not really. It is not ‘most likely’ at all that the girls were mistaken.

There is a distinct possibility that the school replied that this child was a girl, yet was actually male.

Sure. This particular case is closed. OP’s sister has not taken it further.

The issue is that there is little trust left. And that if that child was male, they should not have been in that race.

So you are saying that all those school officials lied to a parent? and the children? Bit of a conspiracy theory there.

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:18

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:14

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.
Exactly and I believe the phrase I've seen used is "collateral damage"

Collateral damage in this case being a girl or woman temporarily upset by being mistaken or questioned in pursuit of fairness and safety for girls and womens.

Compared to collateral damage pushed by the TRA/MRA movement, which regards raped women in prisons as not much of an issue and in pursuit of absolute freedoms for men.

You're using all the phrases but they're a bit desperate in terms of parallels.

HoneyBadgerMom · 28/09/2023 19:19

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:14

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.
Exactly and I believe the phrase I've seen used is "collateral damage"

The most powerful example of real misogyny I've seen in my 50 years is this belief that a man can "feel" like a woman and BE one, instantly. Women are being effectively erased, our experiences and validity scrubbed out. We are being told we must submit, in all things, to men and recognize that we are lesser. And it's being applauded by women who SAY they are all for "women's rights." It blows my mind.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:20

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:14

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.
Exactly and I believe the phrase I've seen used is "collateral damage"

That’s just unethical feminism. No girl left behind is my view. We are all in this together and no girls or women should be offered up as sacrificial lambs.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:21

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:18

Collateral damage in this case being a girl or woman temporarily upset by being mistaken or questioned in pursuit of fairness and safety for girls and womens.

Compared to collateral damage pushed by the TRA/MRA movement, which regards raped women in prisons as not much of an issue and in pursuit of absolute freedoms for men.

You're using all the phrases but they're a bit desperate in terms of parallels.

Oh, yes sports day at primary schools affects the rate of prison rape. How could I have not seen that? Talk about desperate parallels.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 19:22

What I find odd in the OP’s account is that the child in question is described by OP as an obvious boy who is presenting in a typically boyish way and standing with all the other boys. But upon enquiry a parent was told this obvious boy was in fact a girl. This is so far from the normal “trans” narrative especially for that age of child. Without fail EVERY story of a “trans girl” of that age involves a little boy who likes pink, plays with dolls and wants to wear their hair long. This account doesn’t fit that narrative and I wonder if that’s why people are asking questions. It’s a bit unusual isn’t it?

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:22

We are being told we must submit, in all things, to men and recognize that we are lesser.
No we're not, and I tell you what blows my mind ‐ that people state this as fact when it is just your opinion and your feelings of feeling lesser in some ways.
Which some happen to share with you, and others don't.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:23

Froodwithatowel · 28/09/2023 19:15

You can't have it both ways.

If women and girls cannot question the sex - in the face of the gaslighting - in case they accidentally temporarily upset a female - then they just have to accept that males are women and girls. In all circumstances.

How do you intend to protect girls from ever being accidentally mistaken for a boy, AND protect them from boys and men in their toilets and changing rooms and races and refuges? These things are all connected you know?

The girls sex was questioned and the answer came back she was a girl. I have no issue with questions or inquiries. My issue is with the point blank refusal to accept the answer to the question after being told by the people in the know that a girl is a girl.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 19:30

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:08

So for the greater good some girls have to be thrown under the bus because apparently pretending that the misgendering of girls as boys is a myth and fucking over those girls is somehow essential for the rights of all women. This is rubbish of course, because the rights of all women include those girls too.

Can you show us where the OP indicated that the child in question would have known their validity in the race was being questioned?

And then can you explain why questions should not have been discreetly asked by parents and officials to check and how that then ‘fucks over those girls?’ Are you saying that ensuring that category boundaries are being appropriately respected and ensuring fair sport that is ‘fucking over girls’?

Can you tell us when and how we can appropriately raise questions then?

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 19:36

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 19:22

What I find odd in the OP’s account is that the child in question is described by OP as an obvious boy who is presenting in a typically boyish way and standing with all the other boys. But upon enquiry a parent was told this obvious boy was in fact a girl. This is so far from the normal “trans” narrative especially for that age of child. Without fail EVERY story of a “trans girl” of that age involves a little boy who likes pink, plays with dolls and wants to wear their hair long. This account doesn’t fit that narrative and I wonder if that’s why people are asking questions. It’s a bit unusual isn’t it?

Edited

Actually I disagree with you signal. There are some obvious reasons that the child might present as an obvious boy. They might be just at the start of their transition. Or they are presenting with short hair and wearing a unisex uniform because they like that style or their role model presents like that.

Did the OP say anything else? Or just mention hair. I could only see a mention of hair. And that doesn’t mean much in my opinion.

GodessOfThunder · 28/09/2023 19:42

Kids get mixed up all the time. Was most likely a girl with short hair

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 19:50

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 19:36

Actually I disagree with you signal. There are some obvious reasons that the child might present as an obvious boy. They might be just at the start of their transition. Or they are presenting with short hair and wearing a unisex uniform because they like that style or their role model presents like that.

Did the OP say anything else? Or just mention hair. I could only see a mention of hair. And that doesn’t mean much in my opinion.

OP says the following...

I didn’t see the child in question but the parent who made the comment about ‘is this a mixed race?’ Said that it was clearly a boy, in no way presenting as a girl in any ‘stereotypical’ way.

my niece has since said that she saw the child earlier on standing with the boys group of her year group who were getting ready to race and then they came over.she said she thinks maybe they came to see their sister or cousin and decided to run with her to keep her company

We did ask were they sure it was just a girl with short hair because girls have short hair and my niece said no. X (her friend from school) has short hair. The winner was a boy.

OP also didn't state the age of these primary children. I think that's relevant because for very young children the whole trans thing seems to amount to little more than stereotypes. I don't think I've ever seen an account of a very young "trans" child where they haven't talked about toys and hairstyles and who the child likes to play with when explaining the need for social transition. I'd be interested in reading anything contrary to this.

HoneyBadgerMom · 28/09/2023 20:17

SuperNewMe · 28/09/2023 19:22

We are being told we must submit, in all things, to men and recognize that we are lesser.
No we're not, and I tell you what blows my mind ‐ that people state this as fact when it is just your opinion and your feelings of feeling lesser in some ways.
Which some happen to share with you, and others don't.

Yes. We are. And that you are so desperate for male approval that you would pull out the old "you're just insecure, you need to accept whatever men push at you because otherwise you're insecure" is you doing the "pick me" dance and hoping for approval from the very people who are telling you that girl's and women's rights don't matter.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 20:17

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 19:50

OP says the following...

I didn’t see the child in question but the parent who made the comment about ‘is this a mixed race?’ Said that it was clearly a boy, in no way presenting as a girl in any ‘stereotypical’ way.

my niece has since said that she saw the child earlier on standing with the boys group of her year group who were getting ready to race and then they came over.she said she thinks maybe they came to see their sister or cousin and decided to run with her to keep her company

We did ask were they sure it was just a girl with short hair because girls have short hair and my niece said no. X (her friend from school) has short hair. The winner was a boy.

OP also didn't state the age of these primary children. I think that's relevant because for very young children the whole trans thing seems to amount to little more than stereotypes. I don't think I've ever seen an account of a very young "trans" child where they haven't talked about toys and hairstyles and who the child likes to play with when explaining the need for social transition. I'd be interested in reading anything contrary to this.

And a boy transitioning has to start somewhere or do you think they have long hair first? I wouldn’t expect that to be always true.

I know two transboys with shoulder length hair. One still presents in a very feminine style. The OP has not stated how short the hair is. So, I do still disagree with you. But I don’t believe it is that important to this discussion.

I think this whole discussion on whether the child looked like a girl or a boy is missing the point already made by several posters about the lack of trust that now exists. Would you agree?

I also think that lost in discussing about what this child looks like, is posters declaring that nobody should be discreetly asking for confirmation about whether that child is racing validly on the day. And if they clearly are male, it seems that no parent can then start discussions about whether those rules can be changed back to protect the fairness for girls.

ACatCalledPushka · 28/09/2023 20:31

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/09/2023 17:45

Before anyone says that boys don't have an advantage pre-puberty, they do. They already have higher testosterone levels than girls and some anatomical advantages. These aren't enough to mean that boys win every time in a mixed sex race, but they do still have an advantage.

When I had kids (2006-2012). We had a red book to monitor height/weight immunisations etc.

There were different height/weight charts depending on the sex of your child.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 20:34

I think this whole discussion on whether the child looked like a girl or a boy is missing the point already made by several posters about the lack of trust that now exists. Would you agree?

It was a derailment from the beginning and has done a great job of derailing the thread from a discussion about fairness for girls to a discussion about how girls should shut up and not ask questions because some women were 'misgendered' as children and haven't got over it yet.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 20:45

I think this whole discussion on whether the child looked like a girl or a boy is missing the point already made by several posters about the lack of trust that now exists. Would you agree?

Yes I've already said that I agree with this point in more than one of my posts on this thread.

It shouldn't be necessary for primary aged children to raise suspicions about a child's sex. If it becomes necessary for questions to be asked (as they were in this case), the answer, that the child is a girl, should put everyone's mind at rest and those children could then be reassured by their parents that this is just a masculine presenting girl and they were mistaken.

As it goes we are now at the point where everyone knows there is a distinct possibility that the teacher is lying and that the child is in fact a boy.

This is a bloody awful situation and of course it only impacts girls. It impacts all girls in general because there are boys competing in their categories taking their opportunities. But on occasion it also specifically impacts those little girls who are masculine presenting because every now and again there will be some suspicious parent accusing them of cheating (like in the article that I posted upthread) because now the trust is gone and sometimes people get it wrong.

I'm not saying that's what has happened in OP's case (although I do think it is a distinct possibility) but I completely agree with you that the salient issue here is the lack of trust.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 20:50

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 20:34

I think this whole discussion on whether the child looked like a girl or a boy is missing the point already made by several posters about the lack of trust that now exists. Would you agree?

It was a derailment from the beginning and has done a great job of derailing the thread from a discussion about fairness for girls to a discussion about how girls should shut up and not ask questions because some women were 'misgendered' as children and haven't got over it yet.

Oh give it up beastlyslumber most posters on this thread are arguing in good faith and having a perfectly reasonable debate. Stop trying to derail the conversation by suggesting otherwise.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 20:57

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 20:45

I think this whole discussion on whether the child looked like a girl or a boy is missing the point already made by several posters about the lack of trust that now exists. Would you agree?

Yes I've already said that I agree with this point in more than one of my posts on this thread.

It shouldn't be necessary for primary aged children to raise suspicions about a child's sex. If it becomes necessary for questions to be asked (as they were in this case), the answer, that the child is a girl, should put everyone's mind at rest and those children could then be reassured by their parents that this is just a masculine presenting girl and they were mistaken.

As it goes we are now at the point where everyone knows there is a distinct possibility that the teacher is lying and that the child is in fact a boy.

This is a bloody awful situation and of course it only impacts girls. It impacts all girls in general because there are boys competing in their categories taking their opportunities. But on occasion it also specifically impacts those little girls who are masculine presenting because every now and again there will be some suspicious parent accusing them of cheating (like in the article that I posted upthread) because now the trust is gone and sometimes people get it wrong.

I'm not saying that's what has happened in OP's case (although I do think it is a distinct possibility) but I completely agree with you that the salient issue here is the lack of trust.

Yes. I completely agree.

I also made the point up thread that I was regularly missexed as a child. Yes, it was embarrassing. However, I also had a very strong sense of fairness (that has not changed and I see it in my own child too). I would have been horrified as a girl to be beaten by a boy in a girl’s race OR to have been beaten by an older child in a younger child’s race as was given as another example.

As that missexed girl, I would have been one of those who would prefer that all girls racing were assured
that we were all girls than my own comfort. If you see what I mean.

So, even those girls who are constantly missexed (but again, when I spoke people generally worked out I was a girl) may have a different opinion on whether or not parents or other girls should ask questions to ascertain whether a runner is in the right category for them.

As you say, there are many aspects to this.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 20:59

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 20:50

Oh give it up beastlyslumber most posters on this thread are arguing in good faith and having a perfectly reasonable debate. Stop trying to derail the conversation by suggesting otherwise.

I'm not trying to derail anything. You may have been arguing in good faith, and I apologise if I lumped you in with pp who were absolutely not. For most of the first few pages of this thread it was people talking about how 'misgendering' girls is what we should be concerned about.

I absolutely agree with your comment above, btw, especially where you say:

As it goes we are now at the point where everyone knows there is a distinct possibility that the teacher is lying and that the child is in fact a boy.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 21:03

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 19:18

So you are saying that all those school officials lied to a parent? and the children? Bit of a conspiracy theory there.

No. Just realistic. I happen to have children with trans identities in my daily life and I know that school officials will indeed lie about the sex of a child. Do you think that school officials are free to discuss a child’s sex when that child has had their school record changed? If that school official even would know this?

But do please keep trying to tell us that no school official would lie. That is like trying to tell me that girl guiding leaders were freely allowed to discuss the sex of a girl guide with parents concerned with accommodation for away trips. Ie. No. They were not.

Dissidente · 28/09/2023 21:11

No. I don't care how sad one little girl gets about being misgendered. It's not exactly a disaster, I'm sure she'll recover.

I am not sure about that at all.
This is not about temporarily feeling sad. It’s about a persistent feeling of not fitting in, not being accepted, of having no friends.
Some of us don’t ever recover. When I was a teenager, starvation was the way to go. These days, it’s testosterone and major surgery.

I see a lot of comments like “I can tell that’s a man, the hands give him away”. Well, you neat little women need to know that us big-handed females are xx in every cell too.

I am not saying anyone shouldn’t ask, in fact I think they should ask. If it’s a girl on her way to being an elite athlete, she deserves recognition and celebration.
If it’s a boy then the real winners deserve recognition and celebration.

I think what bothers me is people believing for certain they can tell the difference from looking, and what that means for those of us who literally don’t fit into womenswear.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 21:16

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 21:03

No. Just realistic. I happen to have children with trans identities in my daily life and I know that school officials will indeed lie about the sex of a child. Do you think that school officials are free to discuss a child’s sex when that child has had their school record changed? If that school official even would know this?

But do please keep trying to tell us that no school official would lie. That is like trying to tell me that girl guiding leaders were freely allowed to discuss the sex of a girl guide with parents concerned with accommodation for away trips. Ie. No. They were not.

I think there's plenty of evidence now that schools are socially transitioning children without parents' knowledge. It's even in the new NHSE guidance that schools shouldn't be doing this without involving the parents so it's obviously happening. If schools are prepared to lie to the child's own parents on this matter then they are not going to have any qualms about lying to another child's parents.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 21:18

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 20:59

I'm not trying to derail anything. You may have been arguing in good faith, and I apologise if I lumped you in with pp who were absolutely not. For most of the first few pages of this thread it was people talking about how 'misgendering' girls is what we should be concerned about.

I absolutely agree with your comment above, btw, especially where you say:

As it goes we are now at the point where everyone knows there is a distinct possibility that the teacher is lying and that the child is in fact a boy.

No worries.
Glad we have reached a point of agreement. Makes it all worthwhile :)

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.